Cats and dogs living together... mass Pandemonium

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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elp

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Unread post24 Jun 2004, 20:59

Yeah thats right. I'm taking about that topic that drives hobbiests wild, the fallout from the Cope India '2004 exercise like the following [url=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=pandemonium&spell=1"]story[/url]. .... F-15 involved in red and blue exercises with the old IAF.

Really I have given up trying to explain it. I've heard it all; USAF pilots can't cut it, The SU-30 rules ( even though in the ROE they were using the crappy AA10 ( R-27) ( don't get me started on this weapon ) Not the AA-12 ( R-77) for BVR scoring purposes in how the rules were set up.

All in all it was a pretty positive learning experience for both sides, yet if you read all of the public consumption stories on this its just makes you shake your head. Trying to explain the how and why of the reasons we set up exercises like this in the first place can be nothing but a wasted effort sometimes, once the "results" ( what ever that is in the public consumption press ) are "announced".

The Indians have good pilots and train and mission plan hard just like we do. The SU-30, fat pig that it is, can get off some shots. Would I want one of these jets in my air force? Probably not, ( for any number of reasons ). But thats doesn't matter. The USAF pukes will have to endure all of the arm chair flyers for who knows how long on this one.

( ground rules: If you know something that is not public consumption, don't post it here. I just started this post for a fun public consumption only rant. )
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SwedgeII

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Unread post25 Jun 2004, 13:34

"The US fighters flew with certain restrictions that handicapped their effectiveness."
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SwedgeII

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Unread post25 Jun 2004, 13:44

Some believe it is essentially a sales pitch to the US government for the F/A-22.
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SwedgeII

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Unread post25 Jun 2004, 13:47

In these offensive and defensive missions, four F-15Cs were usually flying against 10 or 12 of the same model Indian fighter, according to Col. Greg Neubeck, deputy commander of operations for the wing's 3rd Operations Group and exercise director for Cope India. The 3rd Operations Group is responsible for the 3rd Wing's flying mission.
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SwedgeII

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Unread post25 Jun 2004, 13:51

I wonder what the restrictions were placed on the F-15's probably something stupid like Visually ID before they could shoot!! I also wonder if any of the 15's were the ones with the Phased radar!
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SwedgeII

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Unread post25 Jun 2004, 15:44

Ah Ha!!!!! "One of the reasons the IAF is taking the praise lightly is that the exercise did not involve use of sophisticated technology.
The officer said the exercise did not cover such aspects of modern air warfare as Beyond Visual Range flying and firing. "
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SwedgeII

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Unread post25 Jun 2004, 15:46

pretty bogus as that is what the F-15 does best!!! if they want a close in fight send in the 16's!!
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DeepSpace

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Unread post25 Jun 2004, 19:57

haha.
Just reminding me how the USN kicked a** by the IDF/AF :wink:
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KarimAbdoun

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Unread post26 Jun 2004, 15:04

Then you all can't take this as a measure to compare between the 15 and the 30, Russia, this is for you.
The fighter is not what counts, it's the one who's flying it that matters!
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elp

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Unread post26 Jun 2004, 20:42

KarimAbdoun wrote:Then you all can't take this as a measure to compare between the 15 and the 30, Russia, this is for you.


That would be only part of the picture of course as the most modern big SU's .... in operational units in quantity... are not in Russia... add to that.... The Indian aircrew is funded to do their job... unlike the RuAF.
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Unread post28 Jun 2004, 14:19

If the USAF could have used Slammers first it would have easily mopped up the dregs. I still think the USAF is being really vocal about losing just so they get the bucks for the F-35 and F-22. Works for me!!!
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elp

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Unread post27 Jul 2004, 19:58

Probably not far off the mark there.

The SU-30's USAF encountered in the exercise was just the small batch of the early jets that India got: SU-30K. The K is basically just a two seat SU-27 with air to air refueling added and not much more. The K is an a2a only jet. Can't do R77 ( AA12 ). Just SARH R-27 ( AA10 ) and the very capable HOBS R-73 (AA11). So having said that, an F-15 with AMRAAM real world would hardly be a weakling. SU-30K is a threat jet. Just keep it real.

The K model for India is just for starters in their SU-30 program. Once they get the SU-30MKI sorted out, then you really will have a threat jet. R77 (AA12) ability and A2G ability as well. French and Israeli avionics, GPS/INS. SU-30MKI will also have thrust vectored engines but that doesn't do much for me if everyone has HOBS heaters someday.( TV nozzles is yet just something more that has to be inspected and maintained ). Pretty interesting jet. Still want to see some real world maintenance / sustainment procedure on it ;).

Basic SU-30K shown here at Cope India ( USAF photo )
Attachments
su30k.jpg
Indian SU-30K ( a basic no frills SU-30 ) A2A only.
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elp

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Unread post31 Jul 2004, 09:07

.......In the offensive counterair scenarios, a small number of F-15Cs would attempt to intercept an enemy strike aircraft en route to a target that was guarded by a larger number of Indian fighters.

In the defensive counterair missions, the F-15s would attempt to defend a target against Indian fighters.In these offensive and defensive missions, four F-15Cs were usually flying against 10 or 12 of the same model Indian fighter, according to Col. Greg Neubeck, deputy commander of operations for the wing's 3rd Operations Group and exercise director for Cope India. ....
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Pumpkin

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Unread post31 Jul 2004, 09:58

sorry elp, I might be wrong but my understanding is, USAF is always training to face an overwhelming number of aggressors and to neutralize these offenses. The handicap was designed by both parties during the scenario build, with the main intent to test the F-15 air-superiorty role. Why the emphasis on the difference in number? :roll:

cheers,
Last edited by Pumpkin on 10 Dec 2004, 09:05, edited 2 times in total.
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elp

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Unread post31 Jul 2004, 13:30

Because it is never brought up by many people on this subject. The only babbling out there is SU-30 beats F-15 and thats it, with many people not looking at all the facts. Of course USAF running off crying to congress doesn't help either. I can sell F-22 to congress and never bring up Cope India.

Like I said, I would be real curious how the scoring was setup and done. BVR missiles are always over-rated in exercises. And when you look at it. Bison ( heavily mod'ed MiG-21 for India ) has a better BVR missile that the SU-30K everyone is hyping about. That is the funny part. Bison has R-77 ( AA-12 ) and the SU-30K ( which was in the exercise, does not )

Anyway. Lots of mis-information on Cope India.

MiG-21 Bison. ( select "MiG-21 Bison Virtual Walkaround" ) at this link:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Images/Special/Bison/
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