Export of F-22 or Low-Observable Technology ?

Anything goes, as long as it is about the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
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LinkF16SimDude

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Unread post09 May 2004, 07:44

elp wrote:O.T. I am waiting for Mitsubishi or Kawasaki to ask for lincense build stuff in the next 10 years to do an F/A-22J a la the way the F-15J was done. :twisted: No one can bleed tech industry advantages to foreign sales better than our industries. :x


That may have been true for the F-15J without all the LO stuff, but do ya really think the DoD would risk sending Raptor tech overseas? Even to allies? IMHO, with the amount of moolah dumped into the Raptor it could be considered a "national asset", and those usually stay in-country.

Just me speculatin' :?
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KarimAbdoun

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Unread post09 May 2004, 08:46

They are already exporting stealth capabilities to allies
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Unread post09 May 2004, 12:38

KarimAbdoun wrote:They are already exporting stealth capabilities to allies


Maybe bits and pieces but nothing on the scale like that in the Raptor. I haven't seen Typhoon or F-2 make LO claims matching Raptor. JSF exports I can understand because of all the partnerships but that isn't the case in the Raptor. I have been known to be in error tho. :wink:
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Unread post09 May 2004, 16:50

The F/A-22 will be exported to Israel and other allies, don't know really who they are or even sure.
But I am sure that Raptors will fly in Israeli hands, AFM said that
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Unread post13 May 2004, 15:55

KarimAbdoun wrote:The F/A-22 will be exported to Israel and other allies, don't know really who they are or even sure.
But I am sure that Raptors will fly in Israeli hands, AFM said that


Maybe 10 years ago, but not now. That is a reach of reaches. One thing you have to consider is the treaty with Egypt in the Carter era. Part of that was to sell parity equipment ( this of course has gone down hill some ). As we aren't going to sell F/A-22 to Saudi Arabia as one example, so too will we not sell F/A-22 to Israel, even with companies like Rafael etc being in bed with Northrop Grumman and Lockheed, it ain't going to happen. Congress usually doesn't have a pair, but post 9/11, arms sales to that region of bleeding edge tech ain't going to happen. Stupid things like selling JDAM kits to Israel and upgrading Saudi F-15s ( wiring etc ) to take JDAM and AMRAAM being colosal stupid exceptions. FMS needs to be shut down hard.
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Unread post14 May 2004, 09:39

Part of the treaty between us and Israel is that there are different zones inwhich the distribution of military weapons is different, take for example it's a long way between the Suez canal and the Israeli border, the only weapons you find in Sinai are Border Patrol Guards with Machine guns and guns and some EAF Mi-8s that help the Egyptian Central Security Agency locate fields of Narcotics, the Mi-8 are even based in Sinai, there is not a single air base in Sinai to my knowledge.

Go after the canal, There you will find the Vipers, Mirages and the other Military stuff. This was supposed to be the same with Israel, the same distance between the Canal and the border was to be emplimented on Israeli territory, that didn't happen, there is an Air Base just near Eilat I think or some other city near to us housing a number of fighters, give me some time to verify, so about the treaty with Israel, it has long been violated but of course now is the fear that stealthy F/A-22s and F-35s within Israeli hands is going to make Egypt and Saudi Arabia (as the most suphoticated and most dangerous opponents to Israel) take drastic measures to meet the opponents, may be purchase a number of F/A-22s or 35s themselves to serve along with Vipers, Eagles, Hawkeyes and AWACS.

Anyway let's focus on the Vart, it's has been described by critics as an excellent all-weather flyer, with no all-weather attack capabilty, any comments?
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Unread post14 May 2004, 17:14

LinkF-16SimDude wrote:
elp wrote:O.T. I am waiting for Mitsubishi or Kawasaki to ask for lincense build stuff in the next 10 years to do an F/A-22J a la the way the F-15J was done. :twisted: No one can bleed tech industry advantages to foreign sales better than our industries. :x


That may have been true for the F-15J without all the LO stuff, but do ya really think the DoD would risk sending Raptor tech overseas? Even to allies? IMHO, with the amount of moolah dumped into the Raptor it could be considered a "national asset", and those usually stay in-country.

Just me speculatin' :?


I was probably trying to be too cute on that one. I don't see F-22 being exported. However. Combine the Mil-Industrial complex with Congress and mix it with the way Japan does things and it will make you wonder at times.
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Unread post14 May 2004, 17:17

KarimAbdoun wrote:Part of the treaty between us and Israel is that there are different zones inwhich the distribution of military weapons is different, take for example it's a long way between the Suez canal and the Israeli border, the only weapons you find in Sinai are Border Patrol Guards with Machine guns and guns and some EAF Mi-8s that help the Egyptian Central Security Agency locate fields of Narcrotics, the Mi-8 are even based in Sinai, there is not a single air base in Sinai to my knowledge.
Go after the canal, There you will find the Vipers, Mirages and the other Military stuff. This was supposed to be the same with Israel, the same distance between the Canal and the border was to be emplimented on Israeli territory, that didn't happen, there is an Air Base just near Eilat I think or some other city near to us housing a number of fighters, give me some time to verify, so about the treaty with Israel, it has long been violated but of course now is the fear that stealthy F/A-22s and F-35s within Israeli hands is going to make Egypt and Saudi Arabia(as the most suphoticated and most dangerous opponents to Israel) take drastic measures to meet the opponents, may be purchase a number of F/A-22s or 35s themselves to serve along with Vipers, Eagles, Hawkeyes and AWACS.

Anyway let's focus on the Vart, it's has been described by critics as an excellent all-weather flyer, with no all-weather attack capabilty, any comments?


Yeah, well, my point being. Post 9/11 and the current environment / Congress etc etc. I just do not see F22 being exported. Exporting JSF to anywhere in the Mid-East would be a political hand grenade. The big reason for Israel signing on for the JSF team is so that their industry can compete for "best value" work share and components that go into JSF.
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KarimAbdoun

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Unread post20 May 2004, 19:43

. Exporting JSF to anywhere in the Mid-East would be a political hand grenade. The big reason for Israel signing on for the JSF team is so that their industry can compete for "best value" work share and components that go into JSF.

Well Israel isn't happy of only having work share, Israel will buy the JSF and may develop a twin suit version like the F-16D, possibly for non-training use.
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Unread post20 May 2004, 20:12

I doubt anyone will be able to afford F-22s, regardless of the technology transfer issues. (well, maybe UAE, but they just funded the entire Block 60 development) Japan already blew their wad of cash on the FS-X >> F-2 program. Even with all the money the US gives to Israel I don't think they could afford/justify it.
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Unread post20 May 2004, 20:16

No room for a second seat in the JSF airframe. Israel has so many F-15s and F-16s I don't see them needing a JSF platform. Their participation in JSF is only so they can provide (sell) subsystems to the program, from companies like Elbit etc. The price for a seat as a user/buyer at the JSF table is much higher than what Israel put up. JMNSHO....
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Unread post20 May 2004, 23:03

I'll dig up that AFM thing and write you the report
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Unread post26 Jun 2004, 04:26

I'm unsure either plane can really not be exported.

Realistically, even for the US, it's probably soon going to be beyond even our resources to build a modern warplane alone. (At least, not one that would *ever* pass Congress.)

It's tough for hawks to admit, but is unfortunately true that the only way we keep the industrial base going is through exports.

And sole exports are rare; Usually, often even, we need to team up with foreign firms like Rafael, BAE, etc.

It may even be better for us to do it that way. Labor costs in the US are such that there's less and less of a profit margin for the contractors in doing things domestically; Letting Western allies (and note by Western I mean *culturally* Western, plus places like Singapore, Japan, etc. that aren't Western but may as well be; Not just European and N American) take contracts to build systems under a US prime contractor would help keep costs sane, and would (just as importantly) show that we trust them.

Nobody, and I think this needs to be remembered by those usually focused on the Air Force in particular, nobody will believe in American friendship if we don't occasionally show that it's an equal relationship (instead of the semi-abusive kind so many seem to think is a good idea).

Ending (or at least loosening) "buy American" policies, as NATO's Secretary-Generals have begged us to do for a long time, would be a good idea, but perhaps politically unlikely for full ending.

Below that, though, we could do a lot to show long-standing (and, in virtually every case, occasionally suffering) allies that we actually mean it when we say we believe in fair play by letting them actually have a fair shot at subcontracts. No buy American provisions, none of the legalistic stuff like forcing joint-ventures. Just "build good gear at a fair price, and you'll have a fair shot".

If our firms fail then, they probably couldn't survive in an actual market, anyhow, and hence don't deserve to survive.

Downsides I could see would be a loss of jobs to some, very specialized, firms that really *do* have no other choice. I can't think of many, however, that could not find civilian markets, or create them.

Upsides?

1. Stuff becomes cheaper; Markets do that. It may be a one-buyer market, but it *would* have elements of competition.

2. We keep allies on our side. Not because we yank a choke chain or throw our weight around, but because there are real, appreciable benefits to them. That makes for a stronger friendship and a BETTER friendship.

3. More than likely, gear will improve. Price can only go so far, after all. Besides, the human competitive streak (and the chance of real profits...or real losses) will tend to encourage innovation.

4. Most countries will see this, and once it's proven true, and not just rhetoric, open their competitions up as well. That can only be good.
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Unread post28 Jun 2004, 08:14

In my point of view, exporting stealth tech. to allies, no let me say it another way, exporting stealth, is a dangerous step for America into the unknown, these tech's may be stolen and terrorist supporting countries may start building their own stealth aircraft.

F/A-22Js
Could be, long time away, but that's a long shot, anyway, the most important thing America has to do is to think wisely and let each country make its own stealth tech., that's if they could, if they can't (like us :( ) well too darn bad!

Iran has showed a model and a mock up for their proposed Stealthy jet fighter in the Iran Air Show in 200..., anyway I'll chek AFM (what a great magazine!). That's a start, not good in the view of US, but good as a whole that we're seeing other countries than America starting to use their heads.
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Unread post15 Aug 2004, 04:51

Stealth and counter stealth technology is second only to nukes in the amount of controls and oversight in place for export controls.

'nuff said
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