F-16 Block 60 versus EF-2000 Typhoon

Agreed, it will never be a fair fight but how would the F-16 match up against the ... ?
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boff180

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Unread post05 May 2006, 09:37

Quote yesterday from Eurofighter....

Typhoon has 1/3 turning circle of F-16.

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toan

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Unread post05 May 2006, 12:14

http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2006/05/01/464965.html

Mr. Hamilton also declared:

"Eurofighter has stealth features to reduce its signature (it is 10% of the F-15 radar signature for example) but it is NOT in the same league as JSF which is classified as LO (Low Observable)................."

The frontal RCS of F-15 is 10 m2+ class, and if "10% of the F-15 radar signature" means that the frontal RCS of EF-2K is around 1 m2+ class, then all I can say is that RCS performance of EF-2K is bad..........

F/A-18E: Frontal RCS of 0.1 m2 class according to USAF.

JAS-39: 1/3 frontal RCS of F-16 according to SwAF, which should be around 0.3 ~ 0.5 m2 class.

Rafale: 1/10 ~ 1/20 frontal RCS of M2000-5 according to Dassault, which should be 0.05 ~ 0.2 m2 class.

S-37: Frontal RCS of 0.3 m2 class according to Sukhoi.

I-42: Frontal RCS of 0.1 m2 class according to MAPO.
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post05 May 2006, 12:55

If Typhoon did not have a huge turning advantage over F-16 then I would have to ask why. With vastly lower wing loading and higher T/W it should be a better performer all around.
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Unread post05 May 2006, 22:27

It's a lost cause. The viper is outclassed in every aspect. If you are a viper driver going up against a Typhoon. You should just do a kamikaze run -- go into full afterburner, ignore the missile launch warnings and unload your AMRAAMs on him, 2 as soon as you get into the engagement envelope and two as you get into the NEZ, then if you are still airborne -- eject.
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Unread post06 May 2006, 00:31

thats about it, and all assuming you can lock him up before you die.
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Unread post08 May 2006, 14:10

:lol:
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CheckSix

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Unread post09 May 2006, 16:12

Toan, it seems there are many different statements about typhoons RCS. I'm not sure if they are comparable.
Some said, it is 1/4 od a Tornado which is given in an other source as 8m². This appears rather large, maybe it is for fully loaded condition.

So far we have RCS values for Typhoon from 0,1m² to 2 m²
For F-16 from 3 to 1,2 ...

It is difficult to judge the benefits of stealth. Ygos have shot down an F-117 with a Sa-2/3 by forming a bi-static array.
Other said B-2 appeared on ROLANDs search radar...

Its hard to get reliable infos, same for F-35.
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Unread post09 May 2006, 18:08

CheckSix wrote: Ygos have shot down an F-117 with a Sa-2/3 by forming a bi-static array.




More like unmedicated bi-polar mission planning and driving right near the SAM school house in a predictable fashion (again) and less of a Buck Rogers solution. As it wasn't repeatable, their very smart effort, was hardly a useful combat method to take to war.

As for the Roland dectecting the B-2. If memory serves on that event, it was close. Which doesn't mean anything as the Roland can't engage jets 10-13 miles away at 30-40k ft dropping sub 4 meter PGMs. Contempt of engagment rules there and stealth isn't even needed. Also consider that when in the non combat mode, the B-2, as do other stealth aircraft, have appliances that make them less stealthy. Including more likely than not.... not flying in a stealth specific flying profile.
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toan

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Unread post10 May 2006, 08:17

F-117 have joined the strike missions at least four wars since 1980s, and just only one fighter was shot down. For a traditional fighter with similar mission like Tornado, five fighters were killed in just one war (Desert Storm).

So you want to know the benefit of Stealth??? That is.

F-117 is the stelathy fighter of 1st generation with poor speed and agility, and its main weapon (2,000 Ib LGB*2) has the effective range of only 5~10 km. When it gets close to target and opens the weapon bays (that makes F-117's RCS increased significantly.....), there's chance for SAMs to shoot it down ~ and Ygos got that chance at that time.

The wrong decision of USAF at that time also contributed the success of Ygos: it let F-117 to perform the strike missions with similar flight-route and time-schedule for several days, which made Ygos know where and when the F-117 would come.

Ygos shot down one F-117, right. However. after USAF had changed its wrong decision and plan, did Ygos' great bi-static array system has another chance once again????

As for the American NG stealthy fighters like F-22A and F-35, they are not only much more faster and agile than F-117, but also stealthier and having much better SA and EW capability than it. In addition, many AG weapons (JDAM-ER, SDB, SMACM, mini-JASSM .......) they'll use will have a much longer effective range (90 to 500 km) than the LGBs of F-117.
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Unread post10 May 2006, 09:10

It seems that as time goes by, the manufacutrers' declarations for NG fighters' frontal RCS have become smaller and smaller. According to the information I've gotten:

F-22:
0.5 m2 (1980s) --> 0.1 m2 --> 0.0065 m2 --> 0.001 m2 (end of 1990s) --> 0.0002 ~ 0.0005 m2 (or marble size) --> nearr 0.0001 m2 (or house fly size according to an unconfirmed declaration recently)

F/A-18E:
1.19m2 (Early 1990s) --> 1/10 of F/A-18C/D --> 0.1 m2 (end of 1990s)

Rafale:
2 m2 (end of 1980s) --> 1/3 of F-16 (early 1990s) --> 1/10 of M2000 according to Dassault (1999) --> 1/20 of M2000 ?? (According to an unconfirmed declaration recently)

Eurofighter:
2 m2 (or 1/4 of Tornado at end of 1980s) --> 1/7 of Su-27, 1/5 of F-18, and 1/3 of Rafale according to BAES (1997~1998) --> Second to none except Raptor now and JSF in the future according to BAES recently.


As you can see, BAES didn't offer any solid data about the RCS performance of EF-2000 in the recent years, but just declared "Its RCS performance is second to none except Raptor now". If the declaration of Mr. Hamilton mentioned above (It is 10% of the F-15 radar signature.......) is right, then all I can say is that the previous declaration of BAES should be BS...................
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Unread post10 May 2006, 09:16

toan wrote:http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2006/05/01/464965.html

Mr. Hamilton also declared:

"Eurofighter has stealth features to reduce its signature (it is 10% of the F-15 radar signature for example) but it is NOT in the same league as JSF which is classified as LO (Low Observable)................."

The frontal RCS of F-15 is 10 m2+ class, and if "10% of the F-15 radar signature" means that the frontal RCS of EF-2K is around 1 m2+ class, then all I can say is that RCS performance of EF-2K is bad..........

F/A-18E: Frontal RCS of 0.1 m2 class according to USAF.

JAS-39: 1/3 frontal RCS of F-16 according to SwAF, which should be around 0.3 ~ 0.5 m2 class.

Rafale: 1/10 ~ 1/20 frontal RCS of M2000-5 according to Dassault, which should be 0.05 ~ 0.2 m2 class.

S-37: Frontal RCS of 0.3 m2 class according to Sukhoi.

I-42: Frontal RCS of 0.1 m2 class according to MAPO.


Indeed, this is VERY disappointing.

Eurofighter's RCS is the worst of all the 4th and 5th generation fighters.

Any hope of stealthy interception is ruled out now. Any modern radar will be able to pickup the EF-2K long before it becomes a threat.
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Unread post10 May 2006, 12:55

For a traditional fighter with similar mission like Tornado, five fighters were killed in just one war (Desert Storm).


Now be fair to the Tornado and put the missions in context....

The F-117 was flying at night at medium-high altitude with a full support package of EW and SEAD aircraft over Baghdad.

The Tornado's were assigned a specific mission, a mission that the USAF declined as they couldn't do it as effectively and declared the risk too great (Read Pablo Masons book).

The Tornado's were making 50ft daylight attacks on very heavily defended airfields using JP223 dispensers without any air cover or SEAD support. Arguably a much riskier missions than what the F-117 was performing. Also the USAF had nothing to match the potency of the JP223, the durandal just made a crater, it didn't cover the airfield in mines at the same time for example!

They were effectively easy meat as they had to fly in a straight line on run-in and over the target... giving AAA a field-day! Just to lose 5 aircraft to me is a miracle! If there's one thing the RAF trained pilots are the best at the world at is flying low level!

Andy

p.s. on the RCS front, I know of 5 different quotes from EF reps with different RCS classifications... same goes for JSF, and theres hundreds for the F-22. Who knows that the F-15 RCS you are basing things on Toan is correct? We don't. On this matter, RCS's are a very very closely guarded secret and they will never alude us to an accurate figure.
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Unread post10 May 2006, 13:38

Low level strike is a thing of the past for that style of mission. :wink:
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Unread post10 May 2006, 13:40

lion wrote:
toan wrote:http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2006/05/01/464965.html

Mr. Hamilton also declared:

"Eurofighter has stealth features to reduce its signature (it is 10% of the F-15 radar signature for example) but it is NOT in the same league as JSF which is classified as LO (Low Observable)................."

The frontal RCS of F-15 is 10 m2+ class, and if "10% of the F-15 radar signature" means that the frontal RCS of EF-2K is around 1 m2+ class, then all I can say is that RCS performance of EF-2K is bad..........

F/A-18E: Frontal RCS of 0.1 m2 class according to USAF.

JAS-39: 1/3 frontal RCS of F-16 according to SwAF, which should be around 0.3 ~ 0.5 m2 class.

Rafale: 1/10 ~ 1/20 frontal RCS of M2000-5 according to Dassault, which should be 0.05 ~ 0.2 m2 class.

S-37: Frontal RCS of 0.3 m2 class according to Sukhoi.

I-42: Frontal RCS of 0.1 m2 class according to MAPO.


Indeed, this is VERY disappointing.

Eurofighter's RCS is the worst of all the 4th and 5th generation fighters.

Any hope of stealthy interception is ruled out now. Any modern radar will be able to pickup the EF-2K long before it becomes a threat.


Worrying about RCS as a major factor on a legacy jet is a fools errand. It is only there to help some and is not a be_all_end_all. Especially since stores will be hung. Coating and methods are only a small help on legacy jets.
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boff180

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Unread post10 May 2006, 13:58

elp wrote:Low level strike is a thing of the past for that style of mission. :wink:


lol you say that but the effect of 2 Tornado's packing JP223 on an airfield is likened to that of two B-52s dropping a full load of Mk.82's!!!!

Or about 50-60 F-117s.... :lol: thats ALOT of pgm's :)
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