F-22 Crash

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zero-one

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Unread post15 May 2020, 17:36

Sad news everyone
https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your ... ly-ejects/

An F-22 Raptor from Eglin Air Force Base in Florida crashed Friday morning on the base’s test and training range, but its pilot is safe and in stable condition.

The pilot of the F-22 safely ejected, and was taken to the 96th Medical Group hospital at the base for evaluation and observation, Eglin said in a release. The pilot is in stable condition, but was not identified by Eglin.

The jet was from the 43rd Fighter Squadron, part of Eglin’s 325th Fighter Wing. The range where it crashed is about 12 miles northeast of Eglin’s main base.
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Unread post15 May 2020, 18:10

at least the pilot is alive
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Unread post15 May 2020, 19:06

A sad day indeed.
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Jon

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Unread post20 May 2020, 20:16

Wonder why the Eglin AFB announcement indicates that the 325th FW is from Eglin when it's assigned to Tyndall AFB?
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Unread post01 Jun 2020, 02:24

The F-22 imperative

By: David A. Deptula and Douglas Birkey, Mitchell Institute


The loss of an F-22 Raptor during a training flight on May 15 serves as a wake-up call regarding the size of the Raptor inventory.


Tunnel vision over a decade ago related to counterinsurgency operations in Afghanistan and Iraq saw the nation buy too few F-22s, with just 187 purchased versus the 381 official military requirement. Now, with those wars largely in the rear-view mirror and a new National Defense Strategy, the capability attributes afforded by the F-22 are more important than ever.


These 5th generation stealth aircraft are the crown jewels in the nation’s military arsenal. The recent crash reinforces the need to double down on the F-22 force by fully funding necessary upgrades. No other capability — U.S. or foreign — will come close to the F-22 for years into the future. It is important that budget and inventory management decisions mirror that reality.


The F-22’s primary mission is to secure air superiority — a condition vital for any successful military operation. While the aircraft can also strike targets on the ground with great precision, and conduct intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance inside contested airspace, at its heart the Raptor will remain an air-to-air champion. Because of its vast array of capabilities — not all known — the F-22 is our nation’s greatest conventional deterrent. While the current force size is small relative to other fighter forces, the F-22 has — at a minimum — an order of magnitude greater effect than any other fighter in the world.


The F-22 is a fundamentally unique airplane due to the unparalleled integration of stealth, sensor technology, processing power, and unrivaled flight performance. While many fighters have some elements of this mix, none possess the total package afforded by the F-22. Stealth makes it exceedingly difficult for an enemy to close the kill chain. Sensors and processing power allow it to understand the battlespace with tremendous acumen — allowing F-22s to be at the right place and time to achieve desired effects while minimizing vulnerabilities. Its flight characteristics of speed and maneuverability are simply unequaled by any other aircraft. Anyone questioning the value of the F-22 should consider why friends and foes alike are all pursuing options to develop like-capabilities — they are game-changing.


The fact that the nation needs more F-22s is not rocket science. However, since the F-22 production line closed years ago, this is not a feasible option. Ensuring the F-35 — a plane designed to complement the F-22 with a greater focus on ground attack — does not repeat this same mistake is certainly an important lesson. That aircraft is also an essential investment in our aerial arsenal. In fact, a greater F-35 annual buy-rate becomes more important given the small F-22 force. Future next generation air dominance concepts must also proceed. However, COVID-19-related budget pressures are likely going to delay meaningful advancement in this regard. Plans that exist at the PowerPoint level and theoretical operational concepts must not be confused with concrete capabilities that are able to meet current and future challenges. Further investments in aging designs like the F-16 and F-15, originally designed a half a century ago, simply fail to meet modern requirements. While these aircraft will remain an important part of the inventory out of necessity, their operational utility will diminish given they do not address the challenges that will increasingly dominate the security environment.


This leaves the F-22 as the nation’s keystone air superiority capability. Adversaries respect the aircraft and that is precisely why they are regularly deployed as a signal of resolve. If conflict erupts, F-22s will be at the forefront of operations. This places an extreme imperative upon funding Raptor upgrades to ensure they remain viable for years into the future. The most cost-effective way to increase the capacity of the F-22 force is to upgrade the 33 older block 20 F-22s used for training and test to full combat capability. This effects-based option would result in an additional squadron of F-22s for a minuscule fraction of the cost of attaining 5th generation fighter capacity any other way. For those who focus on cost, are they prepared to pay the price of not having the entire F-22 force at its peak potential? That bill would be measured in strategic objectives surrendered, significant force attrition, and lives lost.


Canceling the F-22’s production with half the military requirement unmet was a tragedy whose impact will be felt for years. However, that is runway behind us. What matters now is how we make the most of the F-22s we do have. Upgrading the older block 20 force of F-22s to full combat capability will deliver a very clear message to potential adversaries. It all comes down to real capability and capacity with the F-22s we possess. Let’s optimize that number. The security challenges of today and tomorrow demand nothing less.

https://www.defensenews.com/opinion/com ... mperative/
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Unread post05 Jun 2020, 14:06

100% agree.

And while we're at it, maximize whatever the F-35 can contribute to the air to air game. I understand that's just a part of what it was designed to do. But it's an important part, as this article states and we can't afford to NOT maximize it..

A dedicated air to air squadron or 3 would be a good starting point. Best practices could be shared with the rest of the force, thus ensuring a robust air to air capablity until we get PCA/F/A-XX..
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Unread post06 Jun 2020, 00:13

mixelflick wrote:100% agree.

And while we're at it, maximize whatever the F-35 can contribute to the air to air game. I understand that's just a part of what it was designed to do. But it's an important part, as this article states and we can't afford to NOT maximize it..

A dedicated air to air squadron or 3 would be a good starting point. Best practices could be shared with the rest of the force, thus ensuring a robust air to air capablity until we get PCA/F/A-XX..


Yeah I think they could upgrade those Block 20 jets as they cycle through MLU in a couple years (assuming they're also slated for MLU.) They need to add a IRST, upgrade the CIPs, MLD, LO coatings and HMD and cockpit screen updates among the mechanical upgrades that are slated for MLU (pumps, valves etc.)
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Unread post06 Jun 2020, 14:02

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Unread post08 Jun 2020, 04:31

Buying more new F-35's may make more sense. Especially, at that price............ :?
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Unread post08 Jun 2020, 13:51

Corsair1963 wrote:Buying more new F-35's may make more sense. Especially, at that price............ :?

Flat out wrong. An upgraded F-22 will be a much better air to air fighter than F-35. $1.7 billion only gets you 21 more F-35As, nowhere near as capable as upgraded F-22s.

Airpower does not revolve around F-35. Tired of seeing F-35 promoted as answer for everything, or that it can replace F-22. It can't, that's what PCA is for. And hopefully they get the full PCA fleet so we won't have an F-15EX situation in the future, except with F-22s.
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Unread post08 Jun 2020, 14:45

Let each platform do what it does best.

That means upgraded F-22's, F-35's if necessary to compliment and... I'm not sure what they're counting on the F-15EX doing. Homeland security stuff, or possibly flying arsenal plane/carrier of hypersonic air to air weapons. Hard to go wrong using the best tool for the job, vs. trying to modify the tool to do something it wasn't designed for.
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Unread post09 Jun 2020, 01:50

disconnectedradical wrote:Flat out wrong. An upgraded F-22 will be a much better air to air fighter than F-35. $1.7 billion only gets you 21 more F-35As, nowhere near as capable as upgraded F-22s.

Airpower does not revolve around F-35. Tired of seeing F-35 promoted as answer for everything, or that it can replace F-22. It can't, that's what PCA is for. And hopefully they get the full PCA fleet so we won't have an F-15EX situation in the future, except with F-22s.


Yeah I think the enthusiasm for the F-35 kinda gets carried away a bit. Its a great jet but it's a compliment not a replacement for the F-22. I think that it makes sense to upgrade the entire fleet to a common MLU configuration that leverages as much technology from the F-35 program as practical. Apparently the USAF as already allocated about $1B towards a new sensor, presumably an IRST. It would make a lot of sense to amortize that expenditure over the entire fleet. Plus, in an major crisis, that would enable a further 33 jets available. During ODS they deployed the F-117 FTU w/ the IPs after the war started so this is not unprecedented.
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Unread post09 Jun 2020, 05:36

disconnectedradical wrote:
F-22 will be a much better air to air fighter than F-35. $1.7 billion only gets you 21 more F-35As, nowhere near as capable as upgraded F-22s.

Airpower does not revolve around F-35. Tired of seeing F-35 promoted as answer for everything, or that it can replace F-22. It can't, that's what PCA is for. And hopefully they get the full PCA fleet so we won't have an F-15EX situation in the future, except with F-22s.



The difference is the F-35's would be brand new. While, the F-22's on the other hand are the oldest Raptors in the inventory.

In addition there is no air threat that the F-35 can't handle just as well as the F-22. While, the former is a much more versatile strike fighter.

That said, upgrading a dozen early F-22's could hold some merit. As they could be quickly used for attrition for any Raptors lost "unexpectedly".

Oh, and the F-22 isn't a much better air to air fighter than the F-35. (better maybe much better hardly) :roll:
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Unread post09 Jun 2020, 15:28

Corsair1963 wrote:In addition there is no air threat that the F-35 can't handle

I agree with this but I believe what you mean is one on one.
yes the F-35 should be more capable than any other potential adversary 1 on 1 but there will be F-35 operators (like S.Korea or Japan) that will contend will large numbers of Chinese 4th gens.

Corsair1963 wrote:just as well as the F-22.

I'll have to disagree with the "just as well" part. If you listen to the fighter pilot podcast for both the F-22 and F-35, I noticed a stark difference between how the pilots of each platform describe their aircraft's ability in the air to air arena.

Now while both are confident that they can win any air to air, Col. Terry Scott from the Raptor is just brimming with confidence and lauding how the Raptor was built from the ground up for air to air. The F-35 pilot on the other hand was less confident and said that the F-35 is not a purpose built air to air machine like the Raptor and was built more for SEAD/DEAD roles.

Gen. Mike Hostage also said that he needs 8 F-35s where he will only need 2 Raptors for a target. I understand that this is simply an analogy the point is simply that he needs much more F-35s than F-22s.

This isn't always possible specially for limited forward deployed units. And while the F-35 is more fuel efficient and has cost less to maintain per Flight hour than the F-22, I don't think 8 F-35s would cost less than 2 F-22s.
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Unread post09 Jun 2020, 17:58

zero-one wrote:I'll have to disagree with the "just as well" part. If you listen to the fighter pilot podcast for both the F-22 and F-35, I noticed a stark difference between how the pilots of each platform describe their aircraft's ability in the air to air arena.

Now while both are confident that they can win any air to air, Col. Terry Scott from the Raptor is just brimming with confidence and lauding how the Raptor was built from the ground up for air to air. The F-35 pilot on the other hand was less confident and said that the F-35 is not a purpose built air to air machine like the Raptor and was built more for SEAD/DEAD roles.

Gen. Mike Hostage also said that he needs 8 F-35s where he will only need 2 Raptors for a target. I understand that this is simply an analogy the point is simply that he needs much more F-35s than F-22s.

This isn't always possible specially for limited forward deployed units. And while the F-35 is more fuel efficient and has cost less to maintain per Flight hour than the F-22, I don't think 8 F-35s would cost less than 2 F-22s.


Yes the AF has made it clear that the F-35 is not a F-22 replacement in the A-A realm. They were at one point willing to trade several hundred Lightnings for about 100 Raptors (I can't recall the exact number.) They're spending billions to upgrade the F-22 fleet as well. If the F-35 was close in capability I doubt they'd do that. Further we have had many AF brass both retired and active stating we don't have enough F-22s for the high end fight. The F-35 is a great jet, its important for the AF's future, but it isn't a F-22 replacement. I just hope we can find the money to procure a PCA. Until then, upgrading the last 33 jets to the Block 30+ standard makes sense.
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