S-400 and F-35

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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ricnunes

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Unread post22 Jan 2020, 17:33

Yes, I also agree that the video was well made and fairly objective and neutral.

IMO and if I had to point out some criticism to the video, this would be the lack of perspective on the stealth/F-35 aircraft side such as the ability to avoid being detected and being shoot at and to shoot first against the S-400. But and on the other hand and specially after watching the later half of the video, I realized that the objective of the video was basically to compare the S-400 with other SAM systems namely the Patriot, the SAMP/T and to a somehow lesser degree, the HQ-9 and not so much to compared the S-400 against a stealth aircraft like the F-35.
(Here the Video Thumbnail was a bit misleading)

From watching the video and some previous knowledge that I had about the system (S-400), I would say that its "best feature" which probably makes it one of the best/deadliest SAM system currently in existence today is that it's a "modular system" or "modularity".
I also found interesting that the author mentioned in the video that the S-400 "modularity" feature does comes with a price/cost, which is being more expensive and "less mobile" in terms of strategical deployment (i.e. to be transported by aircraft from one place to another).

I also echo hornetfinn's words that it won't be easy for a 4th gen fighter aircraft to battle S-400 systems. It will be even and much harder against non-stealth 4th gen fighter aircraft, if the S-400 systems come with many/most "bells and whistles"/"modules"/"extras".
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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notam123

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Unread post05 Feb 2020, 19:50

Another problem is that stealth will lower the hit probability of the missile even if the SAM system can detect and track the VLO target. Especially in combination of countermeasures in such cases.


Agree on the previous part, not so much on the latter one. distance to target is so short when a missile will use its own guidance that stealth is not really a big issue there as far as the missile was lauched with an appropriate solution (radar equation, distance is extremely important.)
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Unread post05 Feb 2020, 23:29

I think the Taiwanese Sky Bow III would make a good "big missile" replacement for the PAC-2.

Image

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It is an active missile using modern western guidance. It is also reportedly much cheaper to buy and maintain than the old Patriot system, perhaps costing only 1/6th of what Patriot's operating costs are. It supposedly has a max range of around 124 miles and it equally well suited for use against ballistic missiles or aircraft.

I think a missile with that sort of capability, the ability to launch in a vertical fashion and the new 360 degree radar system being developed for Patriot would make for a much more robust overall system. I would have loved to see MEADS survive as our new mid-range system while Patriot returned to being a dedicated long range system with a new "big" missile and improved radar and launcher.
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Unread post06 Feb 2020, 18:08

Raytheon was chosen to build the replacement for the Patriot SAM, LTAMDS.

Incumbent Raytheon will build the U.S. Army’s new missile defense radar to replace the Patriot air and missile defense system’s current radar as part of the service’s future Integrated Air and Missile Defense System.

The company has taken its years of experience refining gallium nitride, or GaN, technology at its Massachusetts-based foundry to help design a new radar system that will provide the Army 360-degree threat detection capability in a configuration that includes one large array in the front and two smaller arrays in the back.

https://www.defensenews.com/breaking-ne ... nse-radar/


It will support current Pac 2 and Pac 3 missiles while adding a new lower cost interceptor that was jointly developed with Israel.

Have not heard anything new about MEADS since LM announced that they had submitted a proposal to Germany in 2015.
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Unread post10 Mar 2020, 05:00

Sounds like the F-35A practiced some S-400 hunting over Syria. Can’t get this training anywhere else!

“ During another mission, two F-35As flying together sensed an advanced surface-to-air missile in the distance, geolocated it, and took a radar map of it for targetable coordinates, Abba said. While the F-35s didn’t bomb the SAM, the jets offered feedback to intelligence and command-and-control personnel, he said.”

https://www.airforcemag.com/deployed-f- ... cs-system/
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Unread post10 Mar 2020, 13:35

gc wrote:Sounds like the F-35A practiced some S-400 hunting over Syria. Can’t get this training anywhere else!

“ During another mission, two F-35As flying together sensed an advanced surface-to-air missile in the distance, geolocated it, and took a radar map of it for targetable coordinates, Abba said. While the F-35s didn’t bomb the SAM, the jets offered feedback to intelligence and command-and-control personnel, he said.”

https://www.airforcemag.com/deployed-f- ... cs-system/


Its funny when Russian fanboys/trolls claim that the S-300/400 can detect the F-35 and F-22. Yet when pressed as to how their usual response comes out reading like this after awhile...
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Unread post10 Mar 2020, 13:36

notam123 wrote:
Another problem is that stealth will lower the hit probability of the missile even if the SAM system can detect and track the VLO target. Especially in combination of countermeasures in such cases.


Agree on the previous part, not so much on the latter one. distance to target is so short when a missile will use its own guidance that stealth is not really a big issue there as far as the missile was lauched with an appropriate solution (radar equation, distance is extremely important.)


In radar equation distance is extremely important, but so are radar transmit power and target RCS. Say if the seeker can lock on to normal target 10 km away, it might lock on to VLO target say 3 km away. Basically the missile seeker will have a lot less time to search for the target and lock on to it. It will be very close to target when that happens and thus has very little time and space to maneuver. To achieve similar hit probability, the missile would need much more precise and timely targeting data from the launcher all to way. But with similar targeting system, missile hit probability will be lower against VLO targets than regular targets.
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Unread post12 Mar 2020, 21:24

Did the F-35 reverse a speculation 4 years ago? 8)
https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/ ... lving-role
Middle East SAM Discovery Highlights F-35’S Evolving Role
Steve Trimble March 09, 2020
As a series of Block 4 upgrades are set to elevate the Lockheed Martin F-35’s profile for the counter air-defense mission, a top program official shared an operational anecdote highlighting the aircraft’s latent capability against surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems.

Twelve F-35As deployed last year to the Middle East to support operations against the Islamic State group (ISIS), logging 150 weapons employed during about 7,300 hr. flown on 1,300 combat sorties, said Brig. Gen. David Abba, director of the Air Force’s F-35 integration office, speaking at the Mitchell Institute March 9. “The numbers were pretty remarkable,” Abba said.
Although ISIS forces posed little threat to the F-35A, the deployment provided opportunities for the stealthy fighter to demonstrate capabilities against a more sophisticated opponent.
Abba described an operational scenario that involved a mobile SAM system. The U.S. intelligence community normally tracks the locations of such systems as closely as possible, but in this case the mobile SAM had not been seen “in a while,” he said.

Meanwhile, two F-35As were en route to perform an unrelated mission when an indication of the missing, mobile SAM appeared on their cockpit displays, Abba said. The inference was that the F-35’s onboard sensors, such as the BAE Systems ASQ-239 electronic-warfare suite, detected and identified the threat. The pilots used the data to cue the radar-mapping mode of the F-35’s Northrop Grumman APG-81 active electronically scanned array radar to establish “targetable” coordinates for the SAM.

“We didn’t end up employing ordnance against that [threat], but it was fed back into the [command-and-control] structures in the intelligence community,” Abba explained.
Although the F-35 is not primarily an intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) aircraft, Abba described this latent F-35 capability as “drive-by ISR.”
But the anecdote highlights the F-35’s evolving role within the U.S. military for the suppression or destruction of enemy air defenses (SEAD/DEAD) mission.
“Make no bones about it, this aircraft is the preeminent SEAD/DEAD platform,” Abba said, “and that’s what we need to optimize it for.”

The description of the F-35 as the “preeminent” platform for the SEAD/DEAD mission is striking. Only four years ago, the Air Force’s written testimony to Congress described the F-35A as possessing only a “limited” SEAD/DEAD role. The aircraft also lacks certain features such as a stand-off jamming system and an anti-radiation missile, which are the tools of the trade for other aircraft performing the SEAD/DEAD mission, such as the Boeing EA-18G.

But the F-35’s potential as a counter air-defense system is growing. The Air Force last year launched development of the Stand-In Attack Weapon to give the F-35 a long-range anti-radiation missile, which is adapted from the Navy’s Advanced Anti-Radiation Guided Missile-Extended Range. The Block 4 modernization program also would add the MBDA Spear missile, which includes an electronic-warfare capability.

More recently, the F-35 also has demonstrated an ability to act as a stand-in sensor for long-range, surface-to-surface and surface-to-air missiles.
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Unread post12 Mar 2020, 21:43

doge wrote:Did the F-35 reverse a speculation 4 years ago? 8)
https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/ ... lving-role
Middle East SAM Discovery Highlights F-35’S Evolving Role
Steve Trimble March 09, 2020
As a series of Block 4 upgrades are set to elevate the Lockheed Martin F-35’s profile for the counter air-defense mission, a top program official shared an operational anecdote highlighting the aircraft’s latent capability against surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems.

Twelve F-35As deployed last year to the Middle East to support operations against the Islamic State group (ISIS), logging 150 weapons employed during about 7,300 hr. flown on 1,300 combat sorties, said Brig. Gen. David Abba, director of the Air Force’s F-35 integration office, speaking at the Mitchell Institute March 9. “The numbers were pretty remarkable,” Abba said.
Although ISIS forces posed little threat to the F-35A, the deployment provided opportunities for the stealthy fighter to demonstrate capabilities against a more sophisticated opponent.
Abba described an operational scenario that involved a mobile SAM system. The U.S. intelligence community normally tracks the locations of such systems as closely as possible, but in this case the mobile SAM had not been seen “in a while,” he said.

Meanwhile, two F-35As were en route to perform an unrelated mission when an indication of the missing, mobile SAM appeared on their cockpit displays, Abba said. The inference was that the F-35’s onboard sensors, such as the BAE Systems ASQ-239 electronic-warfare suite, detected and identified the threat. The pilots used the data to cue the radar-mapping mode of the F-35’s Northrop Grumman APG-81 active electronically scanned array radar to establish “targetable” coordinates for the SAM.

“We didn’t end up employing ordnance against that [threat], but it was fed back into the [command-and-control] structures in the intelligence community,” Abba explained.
Although the F-35 is not primarily an intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) aircraft, Abba described this latent F-35 capability as “drive-by ISR.”
But the anecdote highlights the F-35’s evolving role within the U.S. military for the suppression or destruction of enemy air defenses (SEAD/DEAD) mission.
“Make no bones about it, this aircraft is the preeminent SEAD/DEAD platform,” Abba said, “and that’s what we need to optimize it for.”

The description of the F-35 as the “preeminent” platform for the SEAD/DEAD mission is striking. Only four years ago, the Air Force’s written testimony to Congress described the F-35A as possessing only a “limited” SEAD/DEAD role. The aircraft also lacks certain features such as a stand-off jamming system and an anti-radiation missile, which are the tools of the trade for other aircraft performing the SEAD/DEAD mission, such as the Boeing EA-18G.

But the F-35’s potential as a counter air-defense system is growing. The Air Force last year launched development of the Stand-In Attack Weapon to give the F-35 a long-range anti-radiation missile, which is adapted from the Navy’s Advanced Anti-Radiation Guided Missile-Extended Range. The Block 4 modernization program also would add the MBDA Spear missile, which includes an electronic-warfare capability.

More recently, the F-35 also has demonstrated an ability to act as a stand-in sensor for long-range, surface-to-surface and surface-to-air missiles.



I thought all this stuff was settled over Kosovo in 1999 when a lowly B-2 blew up a SAM with a boring old bomb.
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Unread post12 Mar 2020, 22:02

“...a top program official shared an operational anecdote highlighting the aircraft’s latent capability against surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems.” (My emphasis added)

“The inference was that the F-35’s onboard sensors, such as the BAE Systems ASQ-239 electronic-warfare suite, detected and identified the threat.“

Latent capability?? Inferred that the ASQ-239 did what it was designed to do (in part)?? One has to wonder where Mr Trimble has been for the last decade.

For those who might have missed it —

https://www.f35.com/about/capabilities/ ... nicwarfare
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Unread post13 Mar 2020, 00:48

AvWeak is notorious is it not for dissing the F-35 with faint praise and weasel word reporting - they didn't use FINALLY...!
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Unread post26 Mar 2020, 00:29

charlielima223 wrote:Its funny when Russian fanboys/trolls claim that the S-300/400 can detect the F-35 and F-22. Yet when pressed as to how their usual response comes out reading like this after awhile...
Image

A lot of them simply assert that stealth/VLO doesn't exist, to which I generally respond "...in Russia" :mrgreen: :twisted:
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Unread post26 Mar 2020, 01:06

Got some news information on the S-400.

https://topwar.ru/164483-neozvuchennye- ... it-rm.html

“We are talking about the unique trials of the S-400 Triumph long-range anti-aircraft missile system recently carried out at the Kapustin Yar training ground (Astrakhan Oblast), during which several Favorit-RM hypersonic target missiles were successfully intercepted using 48N6DM missile interceptors

What is the uniqueness of the above four-hundred firing tests compared to earlier full-scale tests involving the interception of target missiles of the Kaban 96M6 family (in the 96M6M version with a range increased to 107 km and in the 96M6-03 version with integrated electronic warfare complex) ), RM-75V / MV “Armavir” and 3M20M3 “Singing”?

After all, it is well known that, for example, target missiles of the Kaban family can boast of an ultra-low effective reflective surface (EOC) of 0.015 square meters. m, a flight speed of 4680 km / h in the final segment of the active section of the trajectory and a quasi-ballistic flight path with an apogee of about 46 km.

The hypersonic target missiles of the Favorit-RM family will prepare the calculations of the Buk-M3, S-350 Vityaz and S-400 Triumph air defense systems to repulse massive strikes by the Deep Strike tactical ballistic missiles and AGM-183A aeroballistic missiles

The answer to this question is more than obvious: being a modification of the 5V55P anti-aircraft guided missile S-300PS anti-aircraft missile system, the Favorit-RM target missile retained the entire spectrum of flight technical qualities of the first.

In particular, the maximum flight speed of this product at the time of burning out the charge of a solid rocket engine reaches hypersonic values ​​of 6650–7200 km / h (6.25–6.75 M), while on a descending branch of the trajectory (during diving at angles of 70 —80) Favorit-RM speed can reach 4.5-4M in the stratospheric and 3.5-2.5M in the tropospheric sections of the trajectory.

Such speed parameters turn Favorit-RM into an extremely difficult target both for early modifications of Buk military air defense systems (Buk-M1 and Buk-M1-2), and for a more advanced version of Buk-M2.”

In the case of the implementation of “Favorite-RM” anti-aircraft maneuvers with 25-30G overloads and complex quasi-ballistic flight paths with large diving angles at the terminal section, their interception can only be accomplished with the help of promising Buk-M3, S-350 Vityaz and modernized S-400, the ammunition of which is represented by anti-aircraft guided missiles 9M317MA and 9M96DM.

Thanks to equipping these missiles with active radar homing heads of the Slate family with terminals of a two-way asynchronous data exchange line, for the first time in history the air defense forces and antiaircraft defense of the airborne forces of Russia, it became possible to intercept the “Favorites-RM” and similar high-speed means of air attack of a potential enemy, attacking the “dead funnel”.

The latter is located above the position of the anti-aircraft missile battalion and is a cone-shaped sector of the airspace outside the elevation sector of the radar and guidance radar. Target designation of anti-aircraft missiles 9M317MA and 9M96DM in this case will be able to provide third-party means of radar and optical-electronic reconnaissance.

The unique flight performance of 9M317MA and 9M96DM missiles (performing maneuvers with overloads of 60–70G), due to the presence of a gas-jet system for deflecting the thrust vector in the first and gas-dynamic “belts” of transverse control engines in the second, will be revealed before calculating Bukov-M3, Vityazei ”And the updated“ four hundred ”unprecedented horizons in the field of counteracting the promising US operational-tactical ballistic missiles“ Deep Strike ”and aeroballistic missiles AGM-183A.

The imitation of precisely these elements of high precision weapons generated by the erupted arms race against the background of the Pentagon’s denunciation of the INF Treaty is the primary calling of Favorit-RM hypersonic target missiles.”
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Unread post26 Mar 2020, 21:00

Salute!

I am absolutely terrified about this uber-capable SAM system.

I may even turn in my papers if directed to attack any target within a hundred miles ( 300 + km for the folks using those values) of one of those SAM sites.
=========================
Good friggin grief! Last post above looks like an advertisement for folks to buy the system. That's O.K., but what about support equipment, maintenance numbers, actual combat employment results?

And who are the buyers afraid of?

IMHO, there are bigger fish to fry on the world's threat and actual harmful capability arena.

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Unread post26 Mar 2020, 23:41

Gums wrote:Salute!

I am absolutely terrified about this uber-capable SAM system.

I may even turn in my papers if directed to attack any target within a hundred miles ( 300 + km for the folks using those values) of one of those SAM sites.


LoL :mrgreen:


Gums wrote:=========================
Good friggin grief! Last post above looks like an advertisement for folks to buy the system. That's O.K., but what about support equipment, maintenance numbers, actual combat employment results?

And who are the buyers afraid of?


Looking at that post above and the number of posts by that poster (2 so far), I would say that there's a good chance of that guy being a 'Troll' or who knows, perhaps one of Putin's "keyboard commandos"?

Anyway, my first reaction to that post was: WTF??
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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