The Germans are coming!

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Corsair1963

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Unread post13 Jan 2020, 03:01

They floated a good compromise last year. That was to buy a mix of Typhoons and F-35A's. With the former replacing the early T1's. While, the F-35's would replace the Tornados in the Nuclear Strike Role. Honestly, win - win but turned down for political reasons. (i.e. Trump / France)
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spazsinbad

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Unread post06 Feb 2020, 15:09

Germany Urged To Reconsider F-35 To Replace Tornado
05 Feb 2020 Tony Osborne

"A German think tank is calling on Germany’s defense ministry to reconsider Lockheed Martin’s F-35 as a successor for the country’s Panavia Tornado fleet....

...Now the influential German Society for Foreign Policy, DGAP, argues that to meet the nuclear mission requirements, Berlin should “revise” its original decision to consider only the F/A-18 and the Eurofighter, with authors Heinrich Brauss and Christian Molling calling for the F-35 to be “included in the comparative analysis and evaluation,” in a new report published Feb. 3.

The authors argue that in light of the deteriorating security situation in Europe, given Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and the deployment of new Russian cruise missiles that ultimately ended the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, Germany needs to make “an appropriate and reliable contribution” to NATO’s conventional and nuclear components by providing a “suitable successor for the Tornado in good time.”

The authors do not suggest the F-35 would be the best choice for a Tornado replacement, although they note that the platform will become “the fighter aircraft for all relevant planning and procedures in NATO in the next few years.”

But they note that certifying the Eurofighter to carry the B61 “would take a long time,” so it might not be available as a replacement for the Tornado on time. They also say that the Super Hornet could be ready to carry the B61 by 2025, but it would have to be accompanied by other aircraft such as the EA-18G Growler, increasing the cost of operation....

The F-35 is believed to be the aircraft of choice for senior officers in the German Air Force, although few will go on the record saying so...."

Source: https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/ ... ce-tornado
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pron

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Unread post26 Mar 2020, 19:02

I don't know what to say about this, but I think it's rather strange.

Germany plans to replace its 93 ageing Tornado fighter-bomber aircraft by 30 Boeing F-18 Super Hornet (DCA function), 15 F-18 Growler (electronic warfare) and 78+ multirole Eurofighter combat aircraft, thereby also replacing a number of older Eurofighters.
https://twitter.com/PascalHeyman/status ... 4292625409

And here from germany newspaper handelsblatt.

https://www.handelsblatt.com/politik/de ... tw7CCq-ap4

Strange to wanna buy F-18 SH instead of the F-35 in 2020.
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loke

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Unread post26 Mar 2020, 19:27

pron wrote:I don't know what to say about this, but I think it's rather strange.

Germany plans to replace its 93 ageing Tornado fighter-bomber aircraft by 30 Boeing F-18 Super Hornet (DCA function), 15 F-18 Growler (electronic warfare) and 78+ multirole Eurofighter combat aircraft, thereby also replacing a number of older Eurofighters.
https://twitter.com/PascalHeyman/status ... 4292625409

And here from germany newspaper handelsblatt.

https://www.handelsblatt.com/politik/de ... tw7CCq-ap4

Strange to wanna buy F-18 SH instead of the F-35 in 2020.

It's strange only if you ignore political aspects -- once you consider political aspects (and the peculiar political situation in Germany) it is not so strange anymore.
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neptune

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Unread post26 Mar 2020, 19:38

[quote="pron"]I don't know what to say about this, but I think it's rather strange...

Unfortunately for Super Hornet fans, Boeing has recently announced their decision to turn down the manufacture of 100-ish new Block 3 for the USN. The reason given was the shop limitation of simultaneously manufacturing the "new" Block 3 and upgrading the 500-ish existing Super Hornet Block 2 to Block 3 (at 40/ yr.);.... not enough shop space and manpower.

No recent mention has been provided for the 2018 Kuwait Boeing contract (delivery early 2020s) for 28 Block 3 F/A-18E/F for the KAF.

Fly Navy
:)
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pron

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Unread post26 Mar 2020, 20:26

loke wrote:
pron wrote:I don't know what to say about this, but I think it's rather strange.

Germany plans to replace its 93 ageing Tornado fighter-bomber aircraft by 30 Boeing F-18 Super Hornet (DCA function), 15 F-18 Growler (electronic warfare) and 78+ multirole Eurofighter combat aircraft, thereby also replacing a number of older Eurofighters.
https://twitter.com/PascalHeyman/status ... 4292625409

And here from germany newspaper handelsblatt.

https://www.handelsblatt.com/politik/de ... tw7CCq-ap4

Strange to wanna buy F-18 SH instead of the F-35 in 2020.

It's strange only if you ignore political aspects -- once you consider political aspects (and the peculiar political situation in Germany) it is not so strange anymore.

But why are the F-18 SH easy to swallow, and not the F-35? For the german's both are a "US camel"
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madrat

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Unread post26 Mar 2020, 20:43

It's almost like Germany is too sensitive to Russia's sensibilities. The F-35A in the nuclear role is a huge destabilizing force for Russia. They may as well drop all of their military as the forces have largely become nothing but a formal wear exercise.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post26 Mar 2020, 21:13

neptune wrote:...No recent mention has been provided for the 2018 Kuwait Boeing contract (delivery early 2020s) for 28 Block 3 F/A-18E/F for the KAF. Fly Navy :)

Super Hornet celebrates ten years in Australia
25 Mar 2020 Greg Waldron

"...Boeing also has a contract to provide 28 Super Hornets – 22 single seat F-18Es and six two-seat F/A-18Fs – to Kuwait by 2022...."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing ... 18.article
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wrightwing

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Unread post26 Mar 2020, 21:25

madrat wrote:It's almost like Germany is too sensitive to Russia's sensibilities. The F-35A in the nuclear role is a huge destabilizing force for Russia. They may as well drop all of their military as the forces have largely become nothing but a formal wear exercise.

In that case, Germany wouldn't be working with France to develop their own stealthy aircraft.
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ricnunes

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Unread post26 Mar 2020, 23:47

pron wrote:But why are the F-18 SH easy to swallow, and not the F-35? For the german's both are a "US camel"


If I had to take a guess, I would say that the F-35 is perceived (and is definitely) a competitor for that FCAS (or whatever it is called) aircraft that they will be co-developing with France while the Super Hornet is (probably) not.

Anyway and IMO, this is still a stupid decision by Germany (to procure Super Hornets instead of F-35s).
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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magitsu

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Unread post27 Mar 2020, 02:02

Well, unlike F-35, F-18 can't in any way threaten FCAS sales. Since Germany or Finland/Switzerland will be the last buyer.

Egregious result, but nothing good could've come from the F-35's early disqualification.

Typhoon got some extra sales, which is nice. But they also got slapped because Growlers were indeed favored for ECR. If only the same kind of sense could've been applied to the nuke carrier role. As in favoring those that already have the ability.
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durahawk

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Unread post27 Mar 2020, 03:40

Neither of the aircraft in this purposed split buy is currently capable of carrying the B-61. Meanwhile, work to integrate the B-61 is already underway on the F-35, a much more capable aircraft for essentially the same price.

The industrial union protectionist stupid is alive and well in Deutschland.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post27 Mar 2020, 04:46

Germany reportedly moving to split buy of Super Hornets/Growlers & Eurofighter Typhoons replacing Tornado jets
26 Mar 2020 Valerie Insinna

"WASHINGTON — The German air force will reportedly buy up to 90 Eurofighters, 30 F/A-18E/F Super Hornets and 15 EA-18G Growlers to replace the remainder of its Panavia Tornado fighter jet fleet, but the split procurement doesn’t offer an easy answer for Germany’s requirement to field a nuclear-capable jet, a U.K. defense think tank said.

Germany plans to use the Super Hornet, made by U.S. aerospace company Boeing, to fill a NATO requirement to field fighter aircraft capable of dropping the B61 nuclear gravity bomb, according to German business publication Handelsblatt, which first reported the split buy. It will also buy Growlers to replace the Tornados that carry out an electronic attack role.

However, only the legacy F/A-18 Hornet — not the Super Hornet — was ever certified to carry the B61, wrote Justin Bronk, a research fellow with the Royal United Services Institute, a U.K. based thinktank that covers defense issues. That means that the Super Hornet will have to go through the certification process, said Bronk, who called the split buy “the worst of all previously mooted outcomes.”... [yadayada BOING! can do it - but do they have the track record?]

...The F-35 is not yet capable of carrying the B61, but integrating the joint strike fighter with the bomb is planned as part of the jet’s ongoing Block 4 modernization phase. However, Bronk said buying the F-35 represented the best chance to fielding an nuclear capable jet on a fast timeline.

“If the DCA [dual capable aircraft] role is considered to require actual operational credibility from Germany, then the only feasible choice is the F-35A. Of all the potential aircraft on offer, the F-35A is the only one which represents an operationally credible B61 Mod 12 delivery solution. It will also be operated by all other European DCA members, offering shared training and maintenance burdens,” he said."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... nado-jets/
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magitsu

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Unread post27 Mar 2020, 06:01

Let's see whether Canada manages to do worse. Split buy Gripen/SH? :mrgreen:

They probably should've just leased/bought F-16s if F-35 was a no-go. Now Germany gets to pay the full price of integration, so they bought US R&D work. They could've bought domestic ECR R&D to Typhoon and FCAS instead with the nuke integration money.

Investing into domestic R&D seems to me would've been a better motive to sell to the public. Now they bought just assembly work (more Typhoons). Both are jobs, but since FCAS featured heavily in the reasoning it probably should've been work for the future instead of current.
Bronk, who called the split buy “the worst of all previously mooted outcomes.”

I like this characterization.
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optimist

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Unread post27 Mar 2020, 08:57

I'm glad it was a defence department decision and not the politicians messing stuff up. :mrgreen:
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