F-22 Database and photo thread

Anything goes, as long as it is about the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

disconnectedradical

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 907
  • Joined: 31 Dec 2010, 00:44
  • Location: San Antonio, TX

Unread post16 Mar 2020, 00:55

BDF wrote:
mixelflick wrote:"Four F-15 pilots could handle 12 adversaries...."

Um, really? Now I know the Eagle is undefeated/capable bird but outnumbered 3 to 1 it still excels? Wouldn't that depend heavily on who the competition is?

Four F-15's vs. 12 Mig-23's is one thing. Four F-15's vs. a dozen SU-35's is quite another. That statement is so dependent upon context, I don't know how you/anyone can make it.


F-15 community has routinely trained heavily out numbered like that for decades. I don't know what the threat they train to but I'm imagine its fairly robust. Nowadays the super high end threats are probably going to be delegated to the Raptors and F-35s but they (F-15 bubbas) still need to be able to deal with it.

Some of those quotes are a bit strange though. Like the comment that the F-22 is about the same weight as the F-15C. It much heavier, by 15klbs.


I think that's because most of time F-15C carry 2 wing tanks which are 4,285 lbs each, and over the years some electronics were added which increased weight a bit. Also, each wing pylon is 371 lbs, and launch rails on those pylons are 111 lb each. So the difference is smaller, but F-22 still about 5,000 lbs heavier.
Offline

Scorpion1alpha

F-16.net Moderator

F-16.net Moderator

  • Posts: 1717
  • Joined: 21 Oct 2005, 00:47

Unread post16 Mar 2020, 13:30

BDF wrote:Some of those quotes are a bit strange though. Like the comment that the F-22 is about the same weight as the F-15C. It much heavier, by 15klbs.

Is it, really?
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
And a favorite of mine:
Image

I’d say believe the good Colonel (that actually flew it).
Image
I'm watching...
Offline

Scorpion1alpha

F-16.net Moderator

F-16.net Moderator

  • Posts: 1717
  • Joined: 21 Oct 2005, 00:47

Unread post16 Mar 2020, 13:38

In January 2000, then CSAF General Michael E. Ryan flew chase with an EMD F-22 at Edwards to get a firsthand look at the jet and get program updates. This is what he had to say from his experience way back then.

This (F-22) is a real airplane. I'm in an F-16 with a 129 motor in it and this is the best F-16 the Air Force has. I take off and come back around. The F-22 starts rolling. I light the burner and I give the F-16 everything it can take. I try to keep it up to the Raptor but it goes straight up and starts walking away from me. We rolled over at about 30,000 feet and start accelerating out. He's out at 1.6 Mach and I'm still back trying to catch up to him in full afterburner and he's just in low power. For a pilot, that's amazing.


The general used hand gestures to show how the jet began a most unusual vertical climb.
The F-22 goes up into a 60-degree stall, what would be a stall for any of us. In the F-16, if you do this, you start falling like a rock," he added.


Another example of the F-22’s power, this coming from then USAF Reservist Lt Col Al Norman (at the same time also a TP with Lockheed Martin in the F-22 program), then became the F-22’s CTP.
Colonel Norman remembers "drag racing" an F-16. The Viper got a head start then Norman chased it down and flew by it like a rocket passing an object that was standing still.


Vipers are no slouches...

Image
Image
I'm watching...
Offline

disconnectedradical

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 907
  • Joined: 31 Dec 2010, 00:44
  • Location: San Antonio, TX

Unread post16 Mar 2020, 14:12

Scorpion1alpha wrote:
BDF wrote:Some of those quotes are a bit strange though. Like the comment that the F-22 is about the same weight as the F-15C. It much heavier, by 15klbs.

Is it, really?

I’d say believe the good Colonel (that actually flew it).


F-22 takeoff weight is just under 65k lbs, empty weight is 43k lbs, this is open info and also confirmed by F-22 pilots I talked to. F-15C is about 31k lbs, but modifications over the years probably added some weight, and they also usually fly with 2 wing tanks, so most of time takeoff weight is not much lighter.
Offline

Scorpion1alpha

F-16.net Moderator

F-16.net Moderator

  • Posts: 1717
  • Joined: 21 Oct 2005, 00:47

Unread post16 Mar 2020, 14:41

You’re going to get all sorts of numbers, from a lot of sources. Numbers released may or may not be (the whole) truth.
Depends who you want to believe.

Anyways...
I'm watching...
Offline
User avatar

BDF

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 278
  • Joined: 23 Nov 2006, 13:54

Unread post16 Mar 2020, 14:59

disconnectedradical wrote:I think that's because most of time F-15C carry 2 wing tanks which are 4,285 lbs each, and over the years some electronics were added which increased weight a bit. Also, each wing pylon is 371 lbs, and launch rails on those pylons are 111 lb each. So the difference is smaller, but F-22 still about 5,000 lbs heavier.


I guess I was being a bit pedantic by taking him as an direct comparison, i.e. that the airframe to airframe weight is about the same as F-15C. If you talking that a F-22 weighs about the same as a combat configured F-15C then yes, that's the correct comparison.
When it comes to fighting Raptors, "We die wholesale..."
Offline

eagle3000

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

  • Posts: 74
  • Joined: 09 Apr 2016, 17:17

Unread post16 Mar 2020, 21:12

Scorpion1alpha wrote:You’re going to get all sorts of numbers, from a lot of sources. Numbers released may or may not be (the whole) truth.
Depends who you want to believe.

Anyways...


What are you talking about. Sources are consistent regarding F-15C and F-22 empty weight.
The only question is how much weight the F-15C has gained since MSIP 2, where empty weight was 28500 lbs. That would be 14840 lbs less than 43340 lbs.
Offline

disconnectedradical

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 907
  • Joined: 31 Dec 2010, 00:44
  • Location: San Antonio, TX

Unread post18 Mar 2020, 02:21

eagle3000 wrote:
Scorpion1alpha wrote:You’re going to get all sorts of numbers, from a lot of sources. Numbers released may or may not be (the whole) truth.
Depends who you want to believe.

Anyways...


What are you talking about. Sources are consistent regarding F-15C and F-22 empty weight.
The only question is how much weight the F-15C has gained since MSIP 2, where empty weight was 28500 lbs. That would be 14840 lbs less than 43340 lbs.


I thought F-15C weight 31,700 lbs empty after some upgrades. Add in 2 wing tanks that's 4,285 lbs each, and with pylons and launchers and takeoff weight is not that much lighter than F-22.
Offline

mixelflick

Elite 4K

Elite 4K

  • Posts: 4157
  • Joined: 20 Mar 2010, 10:26
  • Location: Parts Unknown

Unread post18 Mar 2020, 12:28

Doesn't surprise me, really.

The F-22 carries around 5000lbs more internal fuel, and that's just for starters. The additional 10,000lbs? Tough to say, although I'd bet its mostly electronics/avionics and sensors. Dry engine weights of the F-100 and F-119 seem to be pretty close. But back to those sensors...Before the F-35 came along, the F-22 was the king of sensors/SA and in fact acted as a mini AWACS when out of missiles.

As such, I'm betting its the electronics that make it so much heavier...
Offline

sprstdlyscottsmn

Elite 4K

Elite 4K

  • Posts: 4930
  • Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 01:24
  • Location: Nashua NH USA

Unread post18 Mar 2020, 16:13

there is a saying that "holes add weight". That larger internal fuel capacity? Holes add weight. Internal weapons? Holes add weight. 240 additional square feet of wing? weight. RAM coatings? weight.
"Spurts"

-Pilot
-Aerospace Engineer
-Army Medic
-FMS Systems Engineer
-PFD Systems Engineer
-PATRIOT Systems Engineer
Offline
User avatar

BDF

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 278
  • Joined: 23 Nov 2006, 13:54

Unread post18 Mar 2020, 16:54

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:there is a saying that "holes add weight". That larger internal fuel capacity? Holes add weight. Internal weapons? Holes add weight. 240 additional square feet of wing? weight. RAM coatings? weight.


Also a 8,000hr airframe life too. Twice what the Eagle was designed for IIRC.
When it comes to fighting Raptors, "We die wholesale..."
Offline

Scorpion1alpha

F-16.net Moderator

F-16.net Moderator

  • Posts: 1717
  • Joined: 21 Oct 2005, 00:47

Unread post19 Mar 2020, 12:20

Sigh...*SHAKES HEAD*

Back to scheduled programming...

FF 180 taking a bath. F-22s takes one about every 30 days. It's not as simple as going through a car wash.
Image

Classic image of it going through the barrier. Where's the AB? Oh yeah, don't need it.
Image

Nice ones of FF 155 & 158 with the Blues.
Image
Image
I'm watching...
Offline

mixelflick

Elite 4K

Elite 4K

  • Posts: 4157
  • Joined: 20 Mar 2010, 10:26
  • Location: Parts Unknown

Unread post21 Mar 2020, 15:14

Pilot flying the F-16 w/129 engine doesn't give his loadout. I'm assuming a belly tank, otherwise clean.

What's described here about how the F-22 accelerates sounds downright scary. At one point he's at mach 1.6... How many times in an F-16 pilot's career is he ever going to see mach 1.6?

1.6 in a straight line is one thing. 1.6 during maneuvers is quite another! The F-22 sounds as if he was at 1.6 during hard, aggressive maneuvers. I could be wrong, but that's what it sounds like. Makes me wonder if the F-15EX with new 129's and clean (or close to it) will be any better.

Probably not, but still excited to see what's possible.

In any case, 120 or so combat coaded Raptors... still bothers me. And another thing - What in God's name was the point, with the "preservation" of its long term tooling? Doubtful it was cheap, and when it came time to look at a Raptor Restart, they couldn't find a damn thing. Lots of stuff was, "missing". Whatever it was (and you know it wasn't cheap), it was a complete waste of money...
Offline

Scorpion1alpha

F-16.net Moderator

F-16.net Moderator

  • Posts: 1717
  • Joined: 21 Oct 2005, 00:47

Unread post30 Mar 2020, 12:30

Maj Brock Lange, IP at the 1st FW:
While the F-22's top speed is a guarded secret, pilots refer to it as simply “very fast. "Its unclassified top speed is Mach 2.0," Lange said. "So, to say it's fast is an understatement."


Rachel Morris, journalist while researching a story about the F-22:
Although not a black project, many aspects of the F-22 including its performance data remains classified.


Image

Col Pete “Coach” Fesler, former 1st FW Commander and light gray Eagle guy before transitioning into the F-22:
It was a truly mind-blowing experience for an F-15 guy stepping into the {F-22}. I have a stealthy platform that can out-turn everybody, can out-run everybody and have better sensors. The F-22 puts it all together.
Crusing around in an invisible jet at 60,000ft flying at Mach 2, our adversaries know we are pretty good at the air-to-air game.

Image
Image

Lt Col “Lobo”, former 94th FS Commander on integration and comparisons between the F-22 and Lightning:
They’ll complement one another…the F-22 is the best air-to-air fighter that has ever been built. The Lightning will have great sensors and execute some air-to-air missions, but it’s optimized for the air-to-ground role. It just doesn’t have the speed or maneuverability – the athleticism – that makes the F-22 so special.


Lt Col Lee Kloos, former 58th FS Commander and Viper driver and Lightning qualified pilot echos Lobo's statement:
One of the things (the F-35 Lightning) usually takes hit on is the handling because it’s not an F-22. An F-22 is unique in its ability to maneuver and we’ll never be that.

Image
Image
Image
Image
I'm watching...
Offline
User avatar

jetblast16

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 710
  • Joined: 23 Aug 2004, 00:12
  • Location: USA

Unread post31 Mar 2020, 00:43

The Raptor is just such a stunning machine all around. Beautiful too. King of the Air!
Have F110, Block 70, will travel
PreviousNext

Return to General F-22A Raptor forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 6 guests