F-35A maximum G rating lower than 5?!

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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outlaw162

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Unread post14 Feb 2020, 17:40

I agree, some of the simulations are very good.

The ultimate BFM simulator was the TAC Aces two-cockpit visual simulator (with G seats) at Luke in the 80's. Coming from the 105 to the F-4, it was obvious most of the long time 105 guys were not really up to speed, not because they weren't capable but because generally you avoided prolonged maneuvering in that aircraft and BFM currency requirements were minimal & in DACT you generally just went fast and relied on mutual support.

We scheduled a unit deployment to Luke to use the TAC Aces sim for refresher. Conveniently, the cockpits were both F-4 cockpits (although E models). Having come from the Tucson ANG RTU (A-7/F-100), I acted as the instructor for a lot of the training.

The best feature of the sim was that you could freeze it at any point, from either cockpit with the NWS (nose wheel steering) button on the stick. This was ideal for showing the 'too soon, too much, too late, too little' as QS describes. You could then talk it over using the mics between the two cockpits.

I recall one session after lunch where the maneuver being trained was the nose high rolling nose-tail displacement maneuver, commonly called the 'barrel roll' attack. With the trainee set up on a perch, I'd start the defensive turn and look back and monitor his progress. Poor guy was really having problems consistently 'dishing out' of the barrel roll, quite nose low. Common error.

After 3 or 4 attempts in which I froze the sim to talk it over, we started the next one and about half way thru, HE froze the sim and it got quiet. I said "Brown, Brown are you there?" (Being a part-timer and a farmer, Brown was an appropriate call-sign for him). Finally you could hear him coughing, and he said "I think I've got a green bean stuck in my nose." That's how good the simulation was. :shock:

Now if you had big bucks, you could have something like that. :D
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quicksilver

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Unread post14 Feb 2020, 18:05

:lmao: :thumb:
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steve2267

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Unread post14 Feb 2020, 20:30

quicksilver wrote::lmao: :thumb:


X2

:thanks:

Dunno if you can answer these next questions, and I get them "it depends", but am looking for more "rule of thumbs" or typical averages.

Shaw admonished when performing a yo-yo, either hi or low, that a series of smaller yo-yos is better than one big one. Probably has to do with "too soon, too late, too much etc." For simple training wheels discussion where the bandit is in a level defensive turn, when one takes a bite with, say a high yo-yo... how much nose above the horizon are you "typically" going? 5°? 10°? 30°? How much altitude are you typically gaining at the top of the yo-yo? 100ft? 500? 1000? More? From the time you initiate the pitchup for the yo-yo, til your back down at the same altitude is how long? 1sec? 5? 20? Am just trying to get some context here.

Regarding the 'barrel-roll attack', how much angle-off-tail (AOT?) is there before you start thinking that way? 60°? 90°? More? How long does it typically take to complete the roll from the beginning of the pitchup? Am guessing about 9sec +/- (based on changing direction about 90°, and an "average" turn rate from Gen Olds day of 9°/sec for turn rate. But maybe as little as 7sec? So, 7-9sec?

TIA
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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steve2267

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Unread post14 Feb 2020, 20:51

Am going to read through the Italian stallion's book, Art of the Kill; might answer some of my questions. Feel free to answer my previous questions (or not).

It's been a while since I had Falcon 3.0 on a PC. What sim, preferably that also does a good job of several aircraft, but most interested, I guess, in the Viper (unless an older or different aircraft would teach or expose me to these lessons better)? Prefer not to break the bank. Also, what stick / throttle quadrant would you suggest? (Can you get away without rudder pedals?)

TIA
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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outlaw162

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Unread post14 Feb 2020, 21:03

The 'depends' in these academic rear-aspect employment setups really comes down to how much fuselage mis-alignment you were willing to temporarily accept to gain or preserve an advantage as you alluded to.

In the 'real' world, not knowing the opponent, I would be hesitant to accept much mis-alignment during offensive maneuvering initially until the opponent proved I could get away with it....or proved the opposite, in which case I'd be somewhat worried.

During daily with-in squadron training (in non FBW aircraft with limiters) you pretty well knew what your opponent was capable of....i.e. the squadron hierarchy or pecking order. Some guys you could get away with a lot, some not so much.
Win a few, lose a few.

(BTW "Brown", to his credit, was one of the few guys they allowed to transition from the C-124 to the F-105, so he knew nothing but the F-105 A2A philosophy initially, and eventually adapted well for a bomber pilot.)
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quicksilver

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Unread post14 Feb 2020, 21:29

“Shaw admonished when performing a yo-yo, either hi or low, that a series of smaller yo-yos is better than one big one.“

Agree. Why? A smart bogey will use the time you are not pressing him to regain energy and/or build more angles to force an overshoot and change the geometry of the fight — typically a scissors, rolling or horizontal/flat. (‘Probably has to do with "too soon, too late, too much etc’ — Yes)

“For simple training wheels discussion where the bandit is in a level defensive turn...”

Nose-low slice turn more common traditionally, but depends on perf of the jet and the set-up. Horiz turn can be highly effective for the right jet (eg —like a Viper).

“...how much nose above the horizon are you "typically" going?”

‘How high’ is in relation to the target’s plane of motion, not the horizon. How high? Go back to the purpose — until the problem that I saw building (angles, track-crossing rate, nose-to-tail) was relieved/manageable/under control. Lotsa little bites better than one big one unless you effed it up or it was just a really tough bogey.

‘How much altitude...?’ Never looked at altitude unless the airspace was capped.

‘From the time you initiate the pitchup for the yo-yo, til your back down at the same altitude is how long?

Never timed it. Didn’t care. ‘Until angles problem etc resolved‘ just like above. Remember, you’re watching the bogey the whole time you’re doing the yo-yo; the maneuver is not flown looking in the cockpit or HUD. Reference some discussions we’ve had around here about jets that give one proprioceptive feedback — eg different levels of G, or buffet that tells you what alpha range or general airspeed range you’re in. There is an element of ‘energy management’ in virtually everything you do in a jet, whether it is gaining it, spending it, or preserving/maintaining it. Sometimes it’s tactical, sometimes administrative, sometimes just wise for what might come later (like...they just shut down the deck because a tug broke down in the only landing spot not occupied by another aircraft).
Last edited by quicksilver on 14 Feb 2020, 21:51, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread post14 Feb 2020, 21:32

steve2267 wrote:It's been a while since I had Falcon 3.0 on a PC. What sim, preferably that also does a good job of several aircraft, but most interested, I guess, in the Viper (unless an older or different aircraft would teach or expose me to these lessons better)? Prefer not to break the bank. Also, what stick / throttle quadrant would you suggest? (Can you get away without rudder pedals?)

TIA


Let's classify sims by the level of detail.
Study level - nearly every aspect of the plane will be modeled in the final release. Cockpit switchology, systems and subsystems, and a top notch flight model are expected here.

Professional level - A good attempt is made at a flight model to include idiosyncratic behavior at the limits, systems on the other hand may be greatly simplified even if basic function (e.g. radar range) is fairly accurate.

Casual - A basic flight model is designed where only a few parameters determine how a plane will fly (e.g. wing area, CL max, uninstalled thrust rating)

Arcade - Devs did whatever they wanted for the sake of the game (Ace Combat)

Falcon 4.0 on GOG.com ($10) and then get the BMS 4.34 update (free) for the best Study Viper for the Money. There are a few other Professional planes it tries to model well and a ton of Casual planes.

Digital Combat Simulator has the most Study level planes but it the most expensive by far. $55-80 per Study level aircraft and MOST of those are still in Early-Access Beta.
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marsavian

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Unread post14 Feb 2020, 22:34

Steve, if you haven't already I strongly suggest checking out the Growling Sidewinder channel on YouTube. It's primarily DCS based and the majority of his videos are BFM ACM dogfights where guns kill is the aim. What makes his channel quite unique is he runs through every twist, turn and yo-yo of each dogfight in Tac View in the second half of each video explaining who did each maneuver right or wrong WRT position or energy state. It will help you visualise the 3D nature of ACM.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCh2rDh ... LlzL3QEwgp
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Unread post14 Feb 2020, 23:06

marsavian wrote:runs through every twist, turn and yo-yo of each dogfight in Tac View in the second half of each video explaining who did each maneuver right or wrong WRT position or energy state. It will help you visualise the 3D nature of ACM.

For every minute I spend in a mission in DCS I spend two in TacView analyzing everything that went right or wrong. I often see things like "Woah, I was lucky to survive that" or "Wow, I made that hard pull at just the right time"
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steve2267

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Unread post14 Feb 2020, 23:21

Is one monitor enough? Or how many horizontal pixels do you prefer?

Will a sim take advantage of 3 “wraparound” monitors?

Do any yet take advantage of VR goggles (e.g. Oculus Rift)?
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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steve2267

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Unread post15 Feb 2020, 00:22

Aaah, I see that DCS describes required hardware etc and includes VR option.

Still curious about how many pixels you guys like.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post15 Feb 2020, 01:43

Vr
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Unread post16 Feb 2020, 00:33

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
Arcade - Devs did whatever they wanted for the sake of the game (Ace Combat)

The good Ace Combat games had the problem of always being Vietnam regardless of the aircraft (after you get past the order of magnitude too many missiles). The bad ones...could be like playing a weird version of Dance Dance Revolution.
Einstein got it backward: one cannot prevent a war without preparing for it.

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Unread post29 Feb 2020, 04:15

You don't need anything fancy to learn a lot with the computer.
Ironically for DCS old low-rez (1080p!) displays have an edge in combat exploiting the distance rendering. Fancy screen set-ups and VR are for immersion and visual pleasure, if you're really keen on learning about air combat mechanics you don't really need them. If your screen can show them getting bigger or smaller and moving across your FoV, you're golden.

What I'm gonna suggest might seem a little against the usual wisdom though -- if you really want to learn dogfighting on a budget, go with Warthunder. Yes, it's infested with gamer-types. No, you shouldn't expect flight models to be true to life. No, you won't get to fly your favorite modern jet. But the general flight dynamics are quite good and so does a perfectly adequate job of upholding fundamental air combat concepts, which are airframe agnostic anyways. It's got probably the best working mouse-control scheme on the market, and the jump-in-and-go grand furball format allows you to rack up a lot of experience quickly by letting you encounter tons of different engagement scenarios at a time.

DCS is good, the base is free and you can learn a lot with just the free Su-25.
By the by, I actually don't recommend learning on a FBW aircraft simulator straight off the bat. Powerful modern aircraft are very 'forgiving' and can easily lead you astray by allowing you to bruteforce your way out of mistakes. You'll gain a better foundation with something like the MiG-15 or F-86 simulator.
DCS is great for discovering how troublesome BVR combat is and why sensors are everything.

Edit: also x2 what Spurts said about TacView, it's the best way to review and analyze your DCS session. It also happens to be extremely easy to use, just having it on in the background will automagically log your mission.
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Unread post21 Mar 2020, 23:42

steve2267 wrote:
quicksilver wrote::lmao: :thumb:


X2

:thanks:

Dunno if you can answer these next questions, and I get them "it depends", but am looking for more "rule of thumbs" or typical averages.

Shaw admonished when performing a yo-yo, either hi or low, that a series of smaller yo-yos is better than one big one. Probably has to do with "too soon, too late, too much etc." For simple training wheels discussion where the bandit is in a level defensive turn, when one takes a bite with, say a high yo-yo... how much nose above the horizon are you "typically" going? 5°? 10°? 30°? How much altitude are you typically gaining at the top of the yo-yo? 100ft? 500? 1000? More? From the time you initiate the pitchup for the yo-yo, til your back down at the same altitude is how long? 1sec? 5? 20? Am just trying to get some context here.

Regarding the 'barrel-roll attack', how much angle-off-tail (AOT?) is there before you start thinking that way? 60°? 90°? More? How long does it typically take to complete the roll from the beginning of the pitchup? Am guessing about 9sec +/- (based on changing direction about 90°, and an "average" turn rate from Gen Olds day of 9°/sec for turn rate. But maybe as little as 7sec? So, 7-9sec?

TIA


So, Steve...

Exercising some ‘social distancing‘ now and for the next few weeks, I thought I’d revisit some of these threads...

Much of the online discussion about bfm generally puts the cart before the horse — ie intermediate or advanced concepts without any discussion and understanding of foundational basics. I’m guilty of it by assuming too much about someone’s contextual understanding of the questions being asked. ‘Foundational basics‘ around here should start with ‘are you a pilot?’ or ‘have you ever spent any time at the controls of an aircraft?’ Then, of course, ‘what kind‘ and ‘how much‘ because that makes a huge difference. Then we get to the question of whether or not one has flown any aerobatics and formation work, including tacform and maybe an A-A gunnery pattern. Why? Because by the time your Mark 1, Mod 0 Student Naval Aviator (or USAF equivalent) gets to his or her first BFM ride, they have a couple hundred flight and simulator hours, and multiples of that in academic course work. They’ve been exposed to and demonstrated proficiency in basic airwork, instruments, airways nav, aerobatics, and heavy doses of formation work.

Formation work, including formation aerobatics, is the first place one is exposed to control and maneuver of an aircraft in relation to another. It tends to be a significant filter in the flight syllabus. If you cant get good at form work, you’re gonna have a hard time being a military pilot, although there are occasional ‘quality escapes’ from the training command on that count. Most of the flying one does in the course of ones career involves some element of formation flying. But once again, wrt BFM, it is where we start to learn how to maneuver in relation to another aircraft. Some of it requires lotsa finesse, but all of it requires an ability to very rapidly (often almost instantaneously) discern aspect, distance, speed, and closure relative to another aircraft while controlling ones owns aircraft and maneuvering in 3-dimensional space.

Am about to run out of power so I’ll have to pick this up a bit later... :doh:

Ok, I'm back. There are also some informal elements of a syllabus that help build ones ability to not just maneuver a given jet, but to develop a 'feel' for how it responds to control inputs at different altitudes, airspeeds and AOAs. We used to call them 1v0. These sorties can be enormously helpful at mitigating performance errors that might occur later in the formal BFM syllabus due to a nascent familiarity controlling a new jet in aggressive maneuvering.

...and all of this just scratches the surface of the basics that are foundational to an understanding of bfm and development of the skills necessary to be successful at it. And we havent even gotten out of the training command yet (e.g. 2v1), much less fighting one's fleet jet, or fighting dissimilar types.
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