Greece, Romania, and Poland.

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spazsinbad

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Unread post23 Jan 2020, 14:59

Negotiations ‘almost complete’ on Poland’s buy of 32 F-35s, defense minister says
23 Jan 2020 Jaroslaw Adamowski

"WARSAW, Poland — Polish Defence Minister Mariusz Blaszczak said Jan. 22 that next week Poland “will finalize the deal on the purchase of F-35” Lightning II fighter jets. The negotiations to buy 32 aircraft from the U.S. “are almost complete” and “the first units will be ready [for delivery] in 2024,” Blaszczak told local broadcaster Polish Radio....

...The defense minister did not disclose the final value of the procurement. Last September, Following the State Department’s approval of the potential sale for an estimated $6.5 billion, Blaszczak said his ministry hoped to obtain a preferential price tag for the aircraft, similarly to Warsaw’s acquisition of Patriot missiles from Raytheon.

To reduce the fighters’ price tag, the defence ministry has reportedly decided not to sign an offset agreement with the U.S. side. Sources close to the deal told daily Dziennik Gazeta Prawna that the final contract could be worth about $4 billion, including logistics and training."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... ster-says/
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gyllis1

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Unread post27 Jan 2020, 19:23

Poland to sign the 4.6bn purchase on friday:
https://www.airforce-technology.com/news/poland-f35/
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joost

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Unread post31 Jan 2020, 21:53

And it is now a fact, today Poland became the latest F-35 customer!
32 F-35, deliveries from 2024 onwards.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... hter-jets/
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basher54321

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Unread post31 Jan 2020, 22:01

https://www.defence24.com/harpia-fighte ... l-unveiled


A single example of the F-35 will have a pricetag of 87.3 million dollars for the Polish taxpayer, as Defence24.pl found out, after asking questions to the spokesman of the Polish MoD’s Armament Inspectorate, Major Krzysztof Płatek. We have also unveiled new details pertaining to the agreement signed today.

Delivery Timeline

Polish F-35A deliveries would begin in 2024. Delivery of the first 6 out of 32 ordered examples is scheduled to happen between 2024 and 2025. Then 4-6 airframes per year would be delivered, until 32 examples are received in 2030. “The first 6 aircraft will be temporarily deployed to one of the airbases in the United States of America, for the sake of training the Polish Air Force aircrews and ground crews”, representative of the Armament Inspectorate told us. Considering the cost of training and the process adopted so far by the F-35 export users, we may speculate that the above refers to the Luke AFB. The first jets are expected to arrive in Poland between 2025 and 2026. According to the US Embassy in Poland, the Polish AF are to declare IOC with F-35A until 2028.

Configuration

“The F-35A jets will be delivered in configuration that would be standard for all of the users receiving the jets that are series manufactured and planned to be delivered between 2024 and 2030. They would be equipped with the latest Block 4 software. The agreement also includes a modernization package that envisages that upgrades introduced later on would be implemented on the aircraft delivered before those upgrades. Płatek also confirmed that the Polish jets would be fitted with drogue chutes.



Extras Package

The Armament Inspectorate also confirmed that Poland is getting a single spare engine which means that the Air Force would receive 33 engines, 32 of which would be fitted onto the jets.

The agreement also includes:

Ground support equipment and pilots’ equipment,
Ground training equipment for airbases, Integrated Training Centre and 8 Full Mission Simulators included,
Full logistics support package within the framework of the Global Support Solution, valid until 2030,
Operational support IT system for the F-35A,
Training for 24 pilots, up to the instructor level as well; training for 90 members of the tech support personnel; both to happen in the US.
Finances

“The value of the LOA agreement covering delivery of 32 F-35A jets with Pratt & Whitney F-135 engines and a single spare engine, along with a logistics and training package, is defined as USD 4.6 bn. Taking the Value Added Tax into account related to the value of the military equipment supplies in Poland, the value of the deal, on the date of conclusion, is defined as PLN 20.7 billion. Unit price for a single F-35A (engine included) is USD 87.3 million, net” - major Płatek informs. He also emphasized that the Agreement has a complex profile and it includes procurement of all equipment needed to secure the operations of the aircraft acquired. The whole deal will be covered by the MoD’s budget. The payment is to be made to the US between 2020 and 2030.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post31 Jan 2020, 23:58

DRAG Chutes for Polish F-35As makes those aircraft slightly more expensive - extra mods required during building of 'em.
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ricnunes

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Unread post04 Feb 2020, 12:43

basher54321 wrote:https://www.defence24.com/harpia-fighter-procurement-details-polish-f-35-deal-unveiled


A single example of the F-35 will have a pricetag of 87.3 million dollars for the Polish taxpayer,

...

Unit price for a single F-35A (engine included) is USD 87.3 million, net” - major Płatek informs. He also emphasized that the Agreement has a complex profile and it includes procurement of all equipment needed to secure the operations of the aircraft acquired. The whole deal will be covered by the MoD’s budget. The payment is to be made to the US between 2020 and 2030.


USD 87.3 million per each F-35A for Poland is not bad at all! Well, that's actually excellent considering that Poland is NOT a JSF/F-35 partner nation (this is a Foreign Military Sale) and on top of that it also includes drogue chutes.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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optimist

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Unread post04 Feb 2020, 13:38

That would be the flyaway, with a bit of support it runs to $200M

https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/p ... r-aircraft
Poland has requested to buy thirty-two (32) F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Conventional Take Off and Landing (CTOL) Aircraft and thirty-three (33) Pratt & Whitney F-135 Engines. Also included are Electronic Warfare Systems; Command, Control, Communications, Computer, and Intelligence/Communications, Navigational, and Identification (C4I/CNI); Autonomic Logistics Global Support System (ALGS); Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS); Full Mission Trainer; Weapons Employment Capability, and other Subsystems, Features, and Capabilities; F-35 unique infrared flares; reprogramming center; F-35 Performance Based Logistics; software development/integration; aircraft ferry and tanker support; support equipment; tools and test equipment; communications equipment; spares and repair parts; personnel training and training equipment; publications and technical documents; U.S. Government and contractor engineering, logistics, and personnel services; and other related elements of logistics and program support. The estimated cost is $6.5 billion.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post04 Feb 2020, 14:25

optimist wrote:That would be the flyaway, with a bit of support it runs to $200M

https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/p ... r-aircraft
Poland has requested to buy thirty-two (32) F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Conventional Take Off and Landing (CTOL) Aircraft and thirty-three (33) Pratt & Whitney F-135 Engines. Also included are Electronic Warfare Systems; Command, Control, Communications, Computer, and Intelligence/Communications, Navigational, and Identification (C4I/CNI); Autonomic Logistics Global Support System (ALGS); Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS); Full Mission Trainer; Weapons Employment Capability, and other Subsystems, Features, and Capabilities; F-35 unique infrared flares; reprogramming center; F-35 Performance Based Logistics; software development/integration; aircraft ferry and tanker support; support equipment; tools and test equipment; communications equipment; spares and repair parts; personnel training and training equipment; publications and technical documents; U.S. Government and contractor engineering, logistics, and personnel services; and other related elements of logistics and program support. The estimated cost is $6.5 billion.


AFAIK, that "estimated cost" is usually set so that it will not be exceeded. So the real world costs might be a bit less, although you are correct that support and all the other stuff will increase costs significantly. On the other hand I think that for example ALIS likely costs quite a lot of money to buy but it likely lowers costs in the long run due to more efficient logistics and support (even if you could actually operate F-35 without it). It seems that lately these acquisitions have included pretty hefty logistics and support packages that can cover years of operation.
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optimist

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Unread post04 Feb 2020, 21:47

Yes, it all depends on what is counted in the cost. Sweetman made a living out of wrong comparisons. There may be other docs, that give a breakdown.

I read that ALIS is out, ODIN is in
https://www.janes.com/article/93861/pen ... -35-s-alis
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marsavian

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Unread post04 Feb 2020, 22:37

Optimist, $6.5m was the original quote with offsets, $4.6bn is the final contract with support but no offsets ($144m per airframe). See earlier posts on this page.
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optimist

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Unread post05 Feb 2020, 01:15

marsavian wrote:Optimist, $6.5m was the original quote with offsets, $4.6bn is the final contract with support but no offsets ($144m per airframe). See earlier posts on this page.

Ok, so it's $87m flyaway and $144m is with some support and the $200 was if they wanted offset. You can see how Sweetman made a living out of this by comparing different costs and different platforms to tell the story he wanted. :mrgreen:
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marauder2048

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Unread post05 Feb 2020, 07:26

hornetfinn wrote:AFAIK, that "estimated cost" is usually set so that it will not be exceeded.


I think they typically try to pad it in order to buffer against a cost increase that would require
DSCA to re-notify/re-seek approval from Congress.
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charlielima223

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Unread post12 Feb 2020, 03:19

This is an interesting little wrinkle
https://www.overtdefense.com/2020/02/10 ... ers-group/
However, there are some controversies over the planned purchase. General Mirosław Różański (currently retired), the former commander in chief of the Polish Army, expressed doubts in the ministry’s choice. In his opinion, F-35 is not suitable for the conditions of the Polish strategy of defense. Besides its highly offensive profile, there is a huge technological gap between the F-35 and the rest of the Polish military and lack of proper equipment to transfer information for pilots in combat. Further problems start to occur when maintenance is considered. Offset and technological transfers were set aside in this case. There are also no airfields which are currently capable of stationing the F-35.


We've seen and heard this kind of stuff before. Most likely it is a big nothing.
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hythelday

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Unread post12 Feb 2020, 07:59

charlielima223 wrote:This is an interesting little wrinkle
https://www.overtdefense.com/2020/02/10 ... ers-group/
However, there are some controversies over the planned purchase. General Mirosław Różański (currently retired), the former commander in chief of the Polish Army, expressed doubts in the ministry’s choice. In his opinion, F-35 is not suitable for the conditions of the Polish strategy of defense. Besides its highly offensive profile, there is a huge technological gap between the F-35 and the rest of the Polish military and lack of proper equipment to transfer information for pilots in combat. Further problems start to occur when maintenance is considered. Offset and technological transfers were set aside in this case. There are also no airfields which are currently capable of stationing the F-35.


We've seen and heard this kind of stuff before. Most likely it is a big nothing.


Poland has the second largest fleet of tanks in Europe but "strike fighters are too offensive". The general is either a paid piper for someone's lobby (more likely) or is retired for a reason.
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steve2267

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Unread post12 Feb 2020, 17:54

hythelday wrote:Poland has the second largest fleet of tanks in Europe but "strike fighters are too offensive". The general is either a paid piper for someone's lobby (more likely) or is retired for a reason.


I do think that Poland needs and should get the F-35. But they are probably somewhat sensitive to poking the big bear to their east.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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