The Turkey problem

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weasel1962

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Unread post02 Sep 2019, 02:33

Putin is a wily fox. He doesn't sell the latest even if its marketed as such. There's already the S500 and there's always another more advanced system in development. There are also technology controls plus how one uses is often just as important as the system capabilities itself.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post02 Sep 2019, 03:19

polarbear wrote:They missed the most juicy part. Dmitry Shugayev said it is possible to provide tech assistance and material (engines, radars etc.) for TFX. This is much more likely to happen.




LOL very unlikely to happen....You seriously think Turkey will trade Western Technology for Russian??? :bang:


Clearly, Erdogan is up to sometime. Yet, to leave the WEST and NATO for the Russian sphere of influence is extremely hard to believe....
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southerncross

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Unread post02 Sep 2019, 10:09

weasel1962 wrote:Putin is a wily fox. He doesn't sell the latest even if its marketed as such. There's already the S500 and there's always another more advanced system in development. There are also technology controls plus how one uses is often just as important as the system capabilities itself.

This is logical and has always been like that, you don't want a country defeating you with your own weapons...
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falcon.16

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Unread post02 Sep 2019, 16:37

hornetfinn wrote:
ricnunes wrote:That also crossed my mind.

But on the other hand the S-400 is (or seems) actually an updated/improved S-300 which is something (S-300) that the US/NATO already have access to. So and looking at this S-400 Turkey deal, I would say that the gains in terms of knowledge that Russia could get regarding the F-35 would far outweigh the gains in knowledge that US/NATO could get regarding the S-400.
Moreover, the F-35 is a piece of hardware far more advanced than the S-400.


That's very true. S-400 was originally called S-300PM(U)3 as it's basically just an upgrade and not truly a new system. It uses upgraded systems, but still based on same components as S-300. Of course it's more capable than any earlier version, but it's not that huge improvement either over latest S-300 versions.



Russia usually uses new nomenclature although the new product only is an updated version from some product. It happens with fighters too, (Su-27-Su-35) or (Mig-29-Mig-35). It is only marketing.
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durahawk

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Unread post02 Sep 2019, 17:07

weasel1962 wrote:Putin is a wily fox. He doesn't sell the latest even if its marketed as such. There's already the S500 and there's always another more advanced system in development. There are also technology controls plus how one uses is often just as important as the system capabilities itself.


Of course not. If you think the new Turkish S-400's have the same detection ranges, waveforms, and anti-jam capabilities as a Russian military S—400 you are also kidding yourself.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post03 Sep 2019, 05:28

Turkish foreign minister denies plan to buy Russian jets as F-35 fallout continues

Turkey is not looking to buy Russian fighter jets and is still part of the F-35 programme, Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu told reporters on Friday, days after the Turkish president inspected new generation Russian-built planes with his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin.


Ankara's purchase of Russian-built S-400 missile defense systems led to its suspension from the F-35 program when the first S-400s arrived in Turkey in July.

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's friendly meeting with Putin at and air show near Moscow on Tuesday fuelled speculation that Moscow could become Turkey's supplier for new fighters.

Çavuşoğlu downplayed the speculation during a joint press conference with Norwegian Foreign Minister Ine Eriksen Søreide on Friday.


"Firstly, we didn't say we were buying planes from Russia. We are a part of the F-35 program", Turkey's secularist Cumhuriyet newspaper quoted Çavuşoğlu as saying.

However, the foreign minister has said that Turkey will examine alternatives if it can not buy the F-35 jets, and Russia's Su-57 or Su-34 jets are seen as strong contenders in this instance.

This is all the more likely due to Turkey's complicated partnership with Russia in the conflict in neighboring Syria, said analyst Seth J. Frantzman in the Jerusalem Post on Friday.

Due to the complex web of relations between different actors in Syria, Turkey might need to buy Russian jets to secure its national interests in the war-torn country.

Erdoğan visited Moscow on Tuesday amid escalating violence in Idlib, the last major rebel-held enclave in Syria, where the advances of Syrian government forces has jeopardized a Turkish-Russian deal over the province.

Russia appears to be the key broker in the conflict, so Turkey may need to buy Russian aircraft to get what it wants in Syria, Frantzman said.

Vladimir Fitin, the head of the Russian Institute for Strategic Studies Center, told TASS news agency on Wednesday that Ankara might be aiming to put pressure on the United States by hinting of plans to boost cooperation with Moscow.

Source: https://ahvalnews.com/russia-turkey/tur ... -continues
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madrat

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Unread post03 Sep 2019, 12:25

Su-34 would be a direct threat to Israel and EU members.
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ricnunes

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Unread post03 Sep 2019, 15:56

southerncross wrote:
weasel1962 wrote:Putin is a wily fox. He doesn't sell the latest even if its marketed as such. There's already the S500 and there's always another more advanced system in development. There are also technology controls plus how one uses is often just as important as the system capabilities itself.

This is logical and has always been like that, you don't want a country defeating you with your own weapons...


Unless there's a major shortfall of:
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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markithere

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Unread post03 Sep 2019, 19:27

So Turkey buys the S-400 and now if they “get rid” of the S-400s then they can once again have the F-35? You know what they will do once getting at least one F-35, they will use the S-400 on it so Russia can have their data.

There is a old saying,” fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.” In military things we should never have the first time because twice is not ever needed.
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weasel1962

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Unread post04 Sep 2019, 00:49

ricnunes wrote:
southerncross wrote:
weasel1962 wrote:Putin is a wily fox. He doesn't sell the latest even if its marketed as such. There's already the S500 and there's always another more advanced system in development. There are also technology controls plus how one uses is often just as important as the system capabilities itself.

This is logical and has always been like that, you don't want a country defeating you with your own weapons...


Unless there's a major shortfall of:


Maybe to Putin, he's singing...
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element1loop

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Unread post04 Sep 2019, 08:39

However, the foreign minister has said that Turkey will examine alternatives if it can not buy the F-35 jets, and Russia's Su-57 or Su-34 jets are seen as strong contenders in this instance.


Erdogan's govt has no clue what it's doing.

This is all the more likely due to Turkey's complicated partnership with Russia in the conflict in neighboring Syria, said analyst Seth J. Frantzman in the Jerusalem Post on Friday.


And why does it have a "complicated partnership with Russia", at all? They were in NATO and the F-35A program, while Russia was sanctioned by the US and allies while Turkey was backing the FSA's miserable detritus, as Erdogan's pet proxies, which the Russians are in fact fighting. So why are they buying anything off Russian arms producers using Moscow's soft-loans, and breaking US sanctions?

And now talking openly about breaking sanctions again? :doh:

Due to the complex web of relations between different actors in Syria, Turkey might need to buy Russian jets to secure its national interests in the war-torn country.


And this is a basis for procurement decision to buy a new air force? :)

Gross external debt $452.4 billion (31 Dec 2017 est.) ... In March 2018, Moody's downgraded Turkey's sovereign debt into junk status, warning of an erosion of checks and balances under Recep Tayyip Erdoğan. In May 2018, credit ratings agency Standard & Poor's cut Turkey's debt rating further into junk territory, citing widening concern about the outlook for inflation amid a sell-off in the Turkish lira currency. ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Turkey


Turkey's been in a recession for most of a year now, and the average inflation rate has moved between 15 percent and 25 percent in the same period. Meanwhile the Lira purchasing power has sunk to about 15% of the purchasing power against USD when Erdogan came to power.

https://tradingeconomics.com/turkey/inflation-cpi

So this is all just window-shopping, as Erdogan can't afford to buy any fighters without a soft 'loan', while Turkey's existing half a trillion $USD in external debt is rated as junk.

I suppose he could barter for a dozen "6th-gen" Saab JAS-39F in exchange for figs and olives. This is part of the real reason why there's this pretense of a, "complicated partnership with Russia". Who wants to partner with or to lend money to a destitute state lead by a dictator who consistently makes the wrong choices and back-stabs their existing partners? It's not a good look.

The window-shopping charade will continue so that Erdogan can present himself as someone who matters. The Pentagon may want to keep Turkey in the fold but Erdogan's a dry-hole and until he's gone Turkey will be a pawn of anyone who pays him, fluffs him up, and helps to keep him in power.
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
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marsavian

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Unread post13 Sep 2019, 22:30

Sanctions ‘still in play’ for Turkey over S-400, warns US diplomat

https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... ial-warns/

Interestingly, Cooper also indicated a split inside Turkey on the S-400 issue, saying that “depending on who one talks to in Turkish government, there are those who are acutely aware and sensitive and appreciate that this is not over, and are wanting to get back to the way things may have been at a different time, and decisions coming out of Ankara are not necessarily representative of the military institution or the foreign ministry.”

The diplomat also brought up on his own the importance of Turkey as something of a test case for America’s resolve to block major Russian systems from entering the inventories of allies and partners. “Turkey’s an interesting case because we have a number of partners where we have growing relationships with who are closely watching how Turkey is managed, and how they may either seek or choose not to seek acquisition from a near-peer adversary.”

Asked whether he was referring to India, which is considering buying the S-400, Cooper acknowledged that New Delhi is front of mind but that “there are other states that are watching as well.”
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ricnunes

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Unread post14 Sep 2019, 15:38

weasel1962 wrote:Maybe to Putin, he's singing...


Which part? The money for nothing or the chicks for free? Or both? :mrgreen:
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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marsavian

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Unread post14 Sep 2019, 15:44

Kept playing that album when I got my first car ... great memories from decades ago :)

Erdogan wishes this was him: "The man's too big, the man's too strong !" ...

Last edited by marsavian on 14 Sep 2019, 16:29, edited 3 times in total.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post14 Sep 2019, 15:58

AAaahhh EGO DAN the 'SULTAN of SWING's & Roundabouts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0ffIJ7ZO4U

A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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