PAF F-16 vs MiG-21 - New Evidence

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kingtiger88

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Unread post31 Aug 2019, 01:28

https://medium.com/@sameerjoshi73/a-sha ... 30e7412f65

Cutting beyond the rhetoric of both sides, New Evidence on the PAF F-16 vs IAF MiG-21 on 27 Feb 2019 suggests the following -
1. A man-made object on fire, fell over the skies between Kotli and Charhoi on 27 February 2019.
2. There are very clearly two distinct and different crashes noticed in the various videos shot by the residents in the PoK on 27 February 2019.
3. IAF lost ONE MiG-21 over PoK on 27 February 2019. So, who lost the other aircraft?

Please see EVIDENCE No 6 and beyond.

The author argues -
"Yes, there is no image of the debris on ground (neither will there be anything meaningful)— but since time immortal, kills have been granted basis gun camera footage — in absence of which, the crashing image of the ‘Tadpole’ is a very serious piece of evidence — debunking consistent lies of the PAF and ISPR on the subject."
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basher54321

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Unread post31 Aug 2019, 14:10

Kills (Claims really) have been based on many things historically – gun cam film being one of the better means – but even then 50 years later the war records get matched up and the aircraft actually flew home damaged for example.

Gun cam footage is better than any pilot account that’s for certain – or any still images of radar plots for that matter. In fact if the IAF had anything half as good as Gun Cam footage to show us perhaps Twitter wouldn’t be clogged up with Indias and Pakistanis throwing mud at each other.


The amateur blogger also writes:
“The first casualty of War is always the Truth! “


Unfortunately for him there are also “Two sides to every story” – but in this blog we only see the Indian side (as to be expected) but it does put any credibility of the blog down the toilet. He cant just write off everything the other side states with the poor evidence presented or because he thinks all Pakistanis are liars. :doh:

If I hadn’t scrolled to the bottom and seen it was the same blogger who posted something very similar months back (was also posted here) this would have been ignored.

He goes into a lot of effort clearly and desperately wants there to be something somewhere – but no matter how much he writes at the end of the day what is presented is mostly pie in the sky and straw clutching – regardless of how many times he says it is proof or a fact.

There is a lot to be concerned about. Look at this quote:

It also gives us a clue that in all probability, the PAF aircraft which crashed was a single seater, unless for some reason in a twin seater — the other pilot was not able to eject out.


Unless this person retired years back why would he conclude that a twin seater F-16 always has two pilots? The majority of the worlds F-16s are trainers so someone in the back is dead weight in combat – the first AMRAAM shot in combat was from a twin seat US F-16D with one pilot only!!

Anyway the truth may out in many years time and some of this guys conjecture might be close or it might not be.
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boilermaker

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Unread post02 Sep 2019, 10:04

The Indians got their a$$ kicked because their comms were in the clear and the ISi had the beads on them.

It has been proven in part by the fact that the IAF has quietly scrambled to get Israeli freq encryption ,hoping and jamproofing from Israel.


There is no way in such situation of information superiority that the pakistanies were in a position of taking risks and vulnerability. And indeed, the IAF rely on eyewitness accounts and conjectures instead of actual solid information of what happened. This report only reinforces the confusion and wonderment of the IAF regarding what happened, much like a civilian bystander instead of someone who has a real picture of the event.

They were too arrogant and proud and the mission was a complete fiasco, sadly. We shall note that one thing that grates me about Chuck Yeager was his naive endearment for Pakistani thugs, but he did say something interesting about them vs the Israeli pilots. In his view the Israei were too proud and too arrogant and he liked the Pakistani pilot humility and dedication , knowing they were underdogs and had to perform very carefully and on a budget. And frankly, I believe it. That he liked of course being considered as a god by them vs Israelies who were pompous is understandable, but this is how the pakies were able to extract all the juices of airman ship and management from him effectively.

Do not underestimate them

Case closed.
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hythelday

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Unread post03 Sep 2019, 13:16

Wow, the mental gymnastics that guy performed is truly astounding.

Great to hear that an F-16 can burn to crisp leaving no wreckage behind within a couple of seconds it takes it to crash. Keep the good content coming, @kingtiger88!
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vm

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Unread post03 Sep 2019, 16:37

boilermaker wrote:The Indians got their a$$ kicked because their comms were in the clear and the ISi had the beads on them.

It has been proven in part by the fact that the IAF has quietly scrambled to get Israeli freq encryption ,hoping and jamproofing from Israel.


There is no way in such situation of information superiority that the pakistanies were in a position of taking risks and vulnerability. And indeed, the IAF rely on eyewitness accounts and conjectures instead of actual solid information of what happened. This report only reinforces the confusion and wonderment of the IAF regarding what happened, much like a civilian bystander instead of someone who has a real picture of the event.

They were too arrogant and proud and the mission was a complete fiasco, sadly. We shall note that one thing that grates me about Chuck Yeager was his naive endearment for Pakistani thugs, but he did say something interesting about them vs the Israeli pilots. In his view the Israei were too proud and too arrogant and he liked the Pakistani pilot humility and dedication , knowing they were underdogs and had to perform very carefully and on a budget. And frankly, I believe it. That he liked of course being considered as a god by them vs Israelies who were pompous is understandable, but this is how the pakies were able to extract all the juices of airman ship and management from him effectively.

Do not underestimate them

Case closed.

I guess since you have closed the case, we all will have to go with you.
You have tried to portray a distance from the Pakistanis, I guess to appear as a neutral party , but it seems sort of obvious where your royalties lie. Fooled nobody but good attempt nevertheless.
The reference to chuck Yeager and his deep love for the wonderful airmanship of Pakistanis gave you away.
With reference to the article, the Pakistanis kept deaths of 450 to 4000 army soldiers in kargil hidden for more than a decade, what is a solitary plane ?
The truth will take another decade to emerge.
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hythelday

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Unread post04 Sep 2019, 01:57

Alright then, I didn't bother with this crap when the event happened, but now since some still try to concoct some sort of "evidence", let's examine some real evidence, shall we?


This is dedicated to everyone believing in "SECOND PARACHUTE" story irreversibly proving a second aircraft was downed:


Soviet planes had several iterations of ejection seats, including but not limited to K-22, KS, KM-1, KT-1, K-36 etc.

Here's how a K-22, a seat used in MiG-19 worked:

Image

One couldn't help but noticing that a separate stabilizing/main chute deployment parachute exists.

The venerable MiG-21 used several different seats, with early models having KS, which in the later models, including MiG-21bis, were upgraded to KM-1 ejection seat. And it's my pleasure to inform the entire congregation of "Second Chute Church" that after the ejection the seat also deploys it's own parachute and lands in the immediate vicinity of the pilot. "Why would they do that?", one may wonder? Well you see, the seat carried the survival kit for the pilot (НАЗ-7), so it had to land near the pilot for him to be able to use that, as neatly illustrated by this caricature from the polish magazine. Whoever doubts me may type all that text manually into translator. I didn't do that, because I believe it will be pretty identical to the russian sources I found online.

Image

They say that the picture is worth that a thousand words, so let me post some for your entertainment:

Exhibit 1: LNA Fishbed shot down in Libya this summer, pilot ejected, survived, captured. Run a reverse image search to read the details. Please note the holy second chute:

Image

Exhibit 2: Libyan Air Force Flogger (MiG-23 also used KM-1) shot down over Benghazi in spring 2011, pilot ejected, survived. Run a reverse image search to read the details. Please note the holy second chute:

Image

Now to the videos, I found one quite interesting and informative. It's mainly about Soviet K-36 (an impressive specimen to say the least!), but I believe there's footage of Fishbed also (maybe KM-1, maybe modified to accept K-36) at 0:55 mark:

Exhibit 3a: @00:55-01:03 a single person ejects from a plane that looks a lot like Fishbed then transforms into two separate chutes, because the seat has it's own
Exhibit 3b: @01:47-01:54 we see footage of Fullback ejection. It apparently uses older generation of K-36 seat, because two ejected dummies are separatee from their seats... which soon after deploy their own chutes, doubling the number of chutes. Note that the seat chutes are slightly different from persons' chutes. I hope none of you are going to claim a four-seater Fullback exists.
Exhibit 3c: @01:55-02:00 we are treated to a footage of ejection from the tail of a "flying lab". I believe this is also an early gen K-36. As one can notice (watch at 0,25 speed) the seat deploys it's own chute and can be seen dangling near by the pilot in the upper right corner after disappearing from the frame for a second.



"Well why don't you see seat having their own chutes in some well documented crashes at airshows?" Well, I got two versions for that. Either it's disabled/removed because the pilots don't need survival kit at the airshow, OR they were equipped with later gen K-36 (called K-36M, K-36D and K-36D-3,5) which got rid of the seat chute in lieu of strapping survival kit (upgraded to НАЗ-8) directly to the pilot:

Image

Actually, one can see footage @01:16-01:19 of ejected pilot with a raft dangling beneath him after two Fulcrums collided at 1993 RIAT. Or one can look up footage of Fencer shot down by Turks. It also features two pilots parachuting down with rafts dangling beneath them. Su-24 was the first aircraft to feature K-36 seat and thus is eligible to be upgraded to newer K-36 models.

So there you have it: the second chute apparently seen by the locals (but so far absent from any footage) is not a conclusive proof of the second downed aircraft, since MiG-21 would have produced two chutes by itself.
Last edited by hythelday on 04 Sep 2019, 02:15, edited 1 time in total.
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weasel1962

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Unread post04 Sep 2019, 02:13

which would also explain why the Pakistanis thought there were 2 pilots initially (and that they had downed 2 planes) when it was only one.
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vm

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Unread post04 Sep 2019, 06:51

weasel1962 wrote:which would also explain why the Pakistanis thought there were 2 pilots initially (and that they had downed 2 planes) when it was only one.

Nope.
The air conflict took place at 10 am local time.
The Pakistani army spokesperson tweeted and gave a live news conference at 12 pm, clearly saying that 2 pilots were in custody, one being in hospital.
PM Khan niazi( no relation to gen niazi who surrendered 90000 troops in 1971, to India), gave a speech at 5 pm in Parliament, stating that 2 pilots were in custody. So after 7 hours.
Either this was the heaviest fog of war ever seen in history or their were 2 pilots.
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weasel1962

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Unread post04 Sep 2019, 06:59

Clearly in India "nope" means yes. *shaking head here*

For x hours, the Pakistanis obviously thought they had 2 pilots when they only had 1.
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Shimud

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Unread post04 Sep 2019, 08:00

oh no...not again :doh:
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n3sk

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Unread post09 Sep 2019, 01:48

https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/india/sto ... 2019-08-23

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.telegr ... id/1699879

https://youtu.be/QUKo_3KNwEY

There are reports the Indians did shoot down something else that day, their own helicopter. According to the article in India Times, this shoot down happened in the same area 10 minutes after the MiG was shot down.
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jedit

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Unread post09 Sep 2019, 06:56

hythelday wrote:So there you have it: the second chute apparently seen by the locals (but so far absent from any footage) is not a conclusive proof of the second downed aircraft, since MiG-21 would have produced two chutes by itself.


Very informative, however forget it because right now, even Russians (the designers) couldn't come and confirm this was clearly the second chute of the Mig21 per their assessment because India just will not accept it because that would mean accepting total failure. Indians regarding the 27th Feb skirmish can be summarized like this ... "We admitted we shot our own Mi17 chopper, Pakistanis are liars, people said 2 chutes, so it was the F16."
There are so many videos out there of them analyzing the smoke contrail using the word 'tadpole' that 'PAF F16 tadpole' is actually a Googleable thing now pointing to Indian nerd videos and posts.

vm wrote:I guess since you have closed the case, we all will have to go with you.
You have tried to portray a distance from the Pakistanis, I guess to appear as a neutral party , but it seems sort of obvious where your royalties lie. Fooled nobody but good attempt nevertheless.
The reference to chuck Yeager and his deep love for the wonderful airmanship of Pakistanis gave you away.
With reference to the article, the Pakistanis kept deaths of 450 to 4000 army soldiers in kargil hidden for more than a decade, what is a solitary plane ?
The truth will take another decade to emerge.

I guess you meant 'loyalties' and yes they didn't fool anyone, neither did you, nor will I.
vm wrote:Nope.
The air conflict took place at 10 am local time.
The Pakistani army spokesperson tweeted and gave a live news conference at 12 pm, clearly saying that 2 pilots were in custody, one being in hospital.
PM Khan niazi( no relation to gen niazi who surrendered 90000 troops in 1971, to India), gave a speech at 5 pm in Parliament, stating that 2 pilots were in custody. So after 7 hours.
Either this was the heaviest fog of war ever seen in history or their were 2 pilots.


Your bruised ego is evident in you mentioning Bangladesh's war of independence in 1971 from Pakistan instead of providing any irrefutable evidence in the form of wreckage etc.
For a second, assume Greece and Turkey had a conflict today and Greece shot a Turkish F16 (assumption to prove a point, no offense against Turkish forces), Turkey couldn't prove they won the battle in 2019 by reminding back people of Cyprus conflict between the two countries' Armies let alone Air Forces.
Good that you mentioned Kargil conflict where Pakistan Army supposedly didn't acknowledge casualties. You conveniently forgot to tell everyone PAF lost no plane in that conflict while IAF lost 3 there as well. One Mig 21, One Mig27, and one Mi17. I must however mention PAF likely shot none, at least 2 if not all 3 were downed by SAMs.

1999: IAF lost 2 jets and one Mi17
2019: IAF lost at least 1 jet (2 if you believe PAF theory similar to F16 theory), and 1 Mi17.

PAF has no proven loss in both conflicts so let's not go by history there, best keep discussion logical and try providing 'irrefutable' evidence. If it takes 10 years, take 10, come back to this forum in 10 or 20 or whenever when you've found the wreckage.
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Unread post17 Sep 2019, 00:50

The issue is that none of you blokes, who have extensively detailed the Russian drogue shoot theory or dismissed the article outright, have unfortunately gone through the videos or the photos posted in the piece.

It may or may not be an F-16, but one thing is sure - TWO aircraft crashed in POK that day. And if you close your eyes to the investigation, declaring it BS even before reading the related content - then really not much to say here, is it?

Personally after going through this, beyond what the author pieces as evidence, not sure if it was a F-16. But if the amateur video is authentic, sure that a 'second' aircraft did crash. That's all. DO the math now, drogue chute or whatever !!
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Unread post17 Sep 2019, 03:05

kingtiger88 wrote:The issue is that none of you blokes, who have extensively detailed the Russian drogue shoot theory or dismissed the article outright, have unfortunately gone through the videos or the photos posted in the piece.

It may or may not be an F-16, but one thing is sure - TWO aircraft crashed in POK that day. And if you close your eyes to the investigation, declaring it BS even before reading the related content - then really not much to say here, is it?

Personally after going through this, beyond what the author pieces as evidence, not sure if it was a F-16. But if the amateur video is authentic, sure that a 'second' aircraft did crash. That's all. DO the math now, drogue chute or whatever !!

TBH, I have read it and it is BS.
He basically tried his best to cherry pick information to convince himself and the audience that F-16 did crash, but it is not convincing at all. Unless you are Indian
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Unread post17 Sep 2019, 13:13

kingtiger88 wrote:The issue is that none of you blokes, who have extensively detailed the Russian drogue shoot theory or dismissed the article outright, have unfortunately gone through the videos or the photos posted in the piece.


Yes well most will dismiss that blog, as alluded in the post above and for the reasons stated - you can't really blame them.

Yes if this was X and that was Y we could spend a lot of time speculating but still being none the wiser.


Both sides have had public celebrations recently to some extent haven't they with awards for Minty Aggarwal (Yuddh Seva Medal) and Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman (Vir Chakra) - not clear if there will be an actual ceremony.

Pakistan seems to have had what looked like a music awards ceremony apart from the audience looks to be mostly military and both pilots with the MiG/Su claims are paraded on stage. They also showed new pictures of both R-73s they claim to have found with the Wing Commanders MiG - with English labels of course (they know their audience :wink: ) .

The truth is out there.......maybe

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