F-22 vs Su-30MKI

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garrya

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Unread post11 Aug 2019, 16:01

zero-one wrote:Biased but very informative, just take it with a grain of salt. It isn't exactly against the F-22, they focused more against another Stealth aircraft, the J-20

-J-20 was tracked the whole time while flying in the Himalayas (17:30 mark)
Onwards they talk about how the Su-30MKI is far superior to the J-20 and the Rafale only makes the IAF overkill.

-Su-30MKI is now equipped with a "better" AESA radar compared to the J-20 (18:08

I can't see how that video is informative? It seem like a combination of propaganda and red hearing, the alleged " J-20 tracking" story is questionable at best and likely a completely fabrication, even if they they did managed to track it, we don't even know the exact load out of J-20 at that point. What if they tracked this:
E4EAF92C-3800-4FB1-88FF-B69CCEA89A19.jpeg
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mixelflick

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Unread post11 Aug 2019, 16:39

Ditto, I was just about to post the same..

There are several possibilities..

1.) The MKI tracked the J-20 with ease, given it's a stealth failure
2.) The MKI tracked the J-20, albeit while flying with external tanks/lunberg lens equivalent
3.) The MKI didn't track jack, the whole story is dis-information

What telling is how they're proceeding: They aren't making any overtures to acquire stealth aircraft of their own. True, Russia offered the SU-57 (again), but that was un-solicited. If in fact they have been able to track the J-20 with ease and regularly, that of course would be welcome information to American sources. Personally, I think US intelligence is still in the dark as to its VLO/LO status, and just making assumptions. The F-117's flying are probably being used as stealth "red air", given their similar strike role. I'm betting their RCS is an order of magnitude lower than the J-20's though, so it's probably good insurance the 117 mimics it.

I'm betting the Mig-35 will win their current fighter aircraft competition, given the maintain strong ties to Russia. The SU-35 is supposedly in the running, but too expensive to field in the numbers required. The Super Hornet would make a lot of sense, but then again it'd be the first US fighter they've fielded. Ditto for the F-16V/F-21, and it has the additional handicap PAK flies them. More Rafale's are unlikely, given their cost and the current # of machines India says it needs.

When are they supposed to pull the trigger?
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zero-one

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Unread post11 Aug 2019, 18:29

garrya wrote:I can't see how that video is informative? It seem like a combination of propaganda and red hearing


It depends on how you will take the information given.
For example, the alleged claim that the Su-30MKI now uses AESA which is allegedly better than Chinese AESA radars.
You can take it as propaganda or you can take it as recently declasifed information that hasn't made its way to Wikipedia or other common sources yet

The tracking of the J-20, I actually had other questions about that. Like how did they know it was a J-20 in the first place, is their threat recognition library that advanced now that the radar knows the J-20's signature from other aircraft signatures? Or were they tracking it through optical means or at the same time? Was it carrying Luny lenses?
On the other hand, it could also be that their radars can really just track the J-20.
You can take that as Propaganda or truth.

Personally I'm on the fence on this one, Its tempting to dismiss this as just propaganda but on the other hand I'm telling myself that if an F-22 or F-35 pilot said they can track the J-20 with no issues, I'd probably believe them in a heartbeat.
I'm not ready to give the IAF that kind of confidence yet, but I'm not going to dismiss their claims that easily as well unless I can get more info on it. I'm undecided on it.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post12 Aug 2019, 02:56

The Su-30MKI didn't track a clean J-20. Anymore than India shot down an F-16 last February............. :?
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zero-one

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Unread post12 Aug 2019, 08:24

Its one thing to discredit the statements of the IAF without any evidence
and another thing to make up alternate scenarios without evidence as well.

A while back a USAF officer (can't remember who) said that the F-35 can detect adversary 5th gens much further (10 times further IIRC) than it can be detected by them. If you believed that with no questions like I did, why dispute the IAF's claims?

Is it just because they're Indians?
Granted that they have not yet earned the type of credentials that the US, UK, France or even other Asian neighbors like S.Korea, Japan has. But I'm not going to dismiss their claims just yet (I don't necessarily believe it either, just on the fence)

Their F-16 kill claim is disputable because there is counter evidence against it and frankly the counter evidence outweighs their "evidence" that they shot it down.
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garrya

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Unread post12 Aug 2019, 09:06

zero-one wrote:It depends on how you will take the information given.
For example, the alleged claim that the Su-30MKI now uses AESA which is allegedly better than Chinese AESA radars.
You can take it as propaganda or you can take it as recently declasifed information that hasn't made its way to Wikipedia or other common sources yet

IMHO, I take that as propaganda. Indian hasn't demonstrated that their technology is even close to China, and there is no way for them to know how good is J-20, so his statement is nothing but chest pump

zero-one wrote:The tracking of the J-20, I actually had other questions about that. Like how did they know it was a J-20 in the first place, is their threat recognition library that advanced now that the radar knows the J-20's signature from other aircraft signatures? Or were they tracking it through optical means or at the same time? Was it carrying Luny lenses?
On the other hand, it could also be that their radars can really just track the J-20.
You can take that as Propaganda or truth.
Personally I'm on the fence on this one, Its tempting to dismiss this as just propaganda but on the other hand I'm telling myself that if an F-22 or F-35 pilot said they can track the J-20 with no issues, I'd probably believe them in a heartbeat.
I'm not ready to give the IAF that kind of confidence yet, but I'm not going to dismiss their claims that easily as well unless I can get more info on it. I'm undecided on it.

Most of the time, I judge the credibility of a statement base on the amount of evidence that supports it rather than who said it. There isn't enough evidence to support their statement then I won't believe them.
I know that if F-22 or F-35 said they track J-20 from 300 km with their radar, I will call BS.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post12 Aug 2019, 09:25

zero-one wrote:Its one thing to discredit the statements of the IAF without any evidence
and another thing to make up alternate scenarios without evidence as well.

A while back a USAF officer (can't remember who) said that the F-35 can detect adversary 5th gens much further (10 times further IIRC) than it can be detected by them. If you believed that with no questions like I did, why dispute the IAF's claims?

Is it just because they're Indians?
Granted that they have not yet earned the type of credentials that the US, UK, France or even other Asian neighbors like S.Korea, Japan has. But I'm not going to dismiss their claims just yet (I don't necessarily believe it either, just on the fence)

Their F-16 kill claim is disputable because there is counter evidence against it and frankly the counter evidence outweighs their "evidence" that they shot it down.



Maybe this.... :|

QUOTE:

Today's enemies, al Qaeda and the Taliban, pose no threat to American jets. But Welsh is worried about more powerful rivals.

Mark Welsh: We're not the only ones who understand that going to this next generation of capability in a fighter aircraft is critical to survive in the future of battle space and so others are going, notably now the Chinese, the Russians, and we'll see more of that in the future.

And this is what the competition looks like -- the Russian T-50 and China's J-20 Stealth Fighter. According to Welsh, they are more than a match for today's fighters.

Mark Welsh: If you take any older fighter like our existing aircraft and you put it nose to nose in, in a contested environment with a newer fighter, it will die.

David Martin: And it will die because?

Mark Welsh: It will die before it even knows it's even in a fight.

In aerial combat, the plane that shoots first wins, so it all comes down to detecting the enemy before he detects you. The F-35's combination of information technology and stealth would give American pilots what Marine Lt. Gen. Robert Schmidle describes as an astounding advantage in combat.

Robert Schmidle: I shouldn't get into the exact ranges because those ranges are classified, but what I can tell you is that the range at which you can detect the enemy as opposed to when he can detect you can be as much as 10 times further when you'll see him before he'll ever see you and down to five times...

David Martin: I want to nail that down here. If the F-35 was going up against another stealth aircraft of the kind that other countries are working on today, it would be able still to detect that aircraft at five to 10 times the range?

Robert Schmidle: You would be safe in assuming that you could detect that airplane at considerably longer distances than that airplane could detect you.

The F-35's radars, cameras and antennas would scan for 360 degrees around the plane searching for threats and projecting, for example, the altitude and speed of an enemy aircraft, onto the visor of a helmet custom-fitted to each pilot's head.

It is so top-secret no one without a security clearance has ever been allowed to see what it can do...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/f-35-60-mi ... id-martin/
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zero-one

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Unread post12 Aug 2019, 10:48

garrya wrote:Most of the time, I judge the credibility of a statement base on the amount of evidence that supports it rather than who said it. There isn't enough evidence to support their statement then I won't believe them.
I know that if F-22 or F-35 said they track J-20 from 300 km with their radar, I will call BS.


Thats fair and thats what I'm trying to do as well.
When both India and Serbia says they can detect Stealth, I instinctively put more weight on India's statements. The economy is a big factor, more money means more defense spending, equals more R&D etc...Of course we need to factor in India's large armed forces which could spread her defense budget thinner.

Anyway, India's indigenous radar technology is catching up, their 1st fighter AESA 'Uttam' is already nearing operational status.
but I think their best bet is with Russian and Israeli radar tech, they're probably doing more to keep Russian defense contractors afloat than any other export partner (besides Russia of course). They pretty much have all of Russia's most high end toys and some of them have been further improved with French and Israeli tech.

If forced to guess which system India could use to track a J-20, there are a few possibilities that come to mind
1. EL/W-2090 AESA equiped AEWACS. Perhaps networked with other AEWACS or Ground bassed units.
2. AESA is said to have increased capability in detecting LO platforms. India has a number of AESA equipped systems, (DRDO AEWACS, EL/W-2090, SPYDER SAM and now the Su-30MKI is claimed to have it)

India's AFNET system can link multiple airborne and ground based systems to their central command structure, I'm not sure if it also allows them to share information with each other (can Su-30s receive targeting information from SPYDER) if they can, then its quite possible that multiple ground and air based AESA systems were used to track the J-20.


Again, despite all this, I am still not 100% convinced
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swiss

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Unread post12 Aug 2019, 14:34

juretrn wrote:Pretty sure they still have the same old Bars radar, the AESA is an option for the future Super-30 upgrade, as they're calling at the moment.


You are right. The Zhuk-AME is still in development. It will go years bevor the Su-30 will have an operational AESA Radar.

Phazotron-NIIR is completing manufacture of the first AESA radar for the MiG-29," the source said. "In December we will assemble the unit and deliver it to the RSK MiG corporation that will integrate it onto a specially prepared fighter jet … and trials are scheduled for early 2019."

"The whole process is planned to be finished in two years - we will manufacture four radars, integrate them onto fighters and conduct [further] tests," said the source.


https://www.janes.com/article/84713/pha ... ter-trials
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milosh

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Unread post12 Aug 2019, 15:27

swiss wrote:
juretrn wrote:Pretty sure they still have the same old Bars radar, the AESA is an option for the future Super-30 upgrade, as they're calling at the moment.


You are right. The Zhuk-AME is still in development. It will go years bevor the Su-30 will have an operational AESA Radar.

Phazotron-NIIR is completing manufacture of the first AESA radar for the MiG-29," the source said. "In December we will assemble the unit and deliver it to the RSK MiG corporation that will integrate it onto a specially prepared fighter jet … and trials are scheduled for early 2019."

"The whole process is planned to be finished in two years - we will manufacture four radars, integrate them onto fighters and conduct [further] tests," said the source.


https://www.janes.com/article/84713/pha ... ter-trials


There isn't Zhuk radar in any Flanker so I really doubt AESA version of that radar will be Flanker upgrade. What will be offered is variant of N036 (Su-57 radar) but Russians now aren't keen to offer it to India as Flanker upgrade when India isn't partner in PAK-FA program. I wouldn't be suprise to see N035M as option for Su-30MKI (upgraded Su-35 radar)
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milosh

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Unread post12 Aug 2019, 15:48

mixelflick wrote:The F-117's flying are probably being used as stealth "red air", given their similar strike role. I'm betting their RCS is an order of magnitude lower than the J-20's though, so it's probably good insurance the 117 mimics it.


https://cdn1.i-scmp.com/sites/default/f ... k=_TZYxfez
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post12 Aug 2019, 16:18

Early F-35As are also being used as Red Air now.
"Spurts"

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swiss

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Unread post12 Aug 2019, 20:03

milosh wrote:
swiss wrote:
juretrn wrote:Pretty sure they still have the same old Bars radar, the AESA is an option for the future Super-30 upgrade, as they're calling at the moment.


You are right. The Zhuk-AME is still in development. It will go years bevor the Su-30 will have an operational AESA Radar.

Phazotron-NIIR is completing manufacture of the first AESA radar for the MiG-29," the source said. "In December we will assemble the unit and deliver it to the RSK MiG corporation that will integrate it onto a specially prepared fighter jet … and trials are scheduled for early 2019."

"The whole process is planned to be finished in two years - we will manufacture four radars, integrate them onto fighters and conduct [further] tests," said the source.


https://www.janes.com/article/84713/pha ... ter-trials


There isn't Zhuk radar in any Flanker so I really doubt AESA version of that radar will be Flanker upgrade. What will be offered is variant of N036 (Su-57 radar) but Russians now aren't keen to offer it to India as Flanker upgrade when India isn't partner in PAK-FA program. I wouldn't be suprise to see N035M as option for Su-30MKI (upgraded Su-35 radar)


According to this site the Zhuk-AME is an option for the Su-30 MKI

https://www.defenseworld.net/news/19625 ... VG2zC1XZTY
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disconnectedradical

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Unread post12 Aug 2019, 23:00

I call BS on the Indian claim of detecting J-20 especially from that distance. From what I've seen Indian Air Force has habit of chest beating.
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Unread post13 Aug 2019, 02:03

disconnectedradical wrote:I call BS on the Indian claim of detecting J-20 especially from that distance. From what I've seen Indian Air Force has habit of chest beating.



Bad habit they likely picked up from their Russian Friends. Nonetheless, many are waking up and moving on.... :wink:
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