Japan unveils first stealth fighter

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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milosh

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Unread post14 Apr 2019, 11:48

mixelflick wrote:Given what they're going to sink into this, they'd be much wiser in using that $ to acquire more F-35's. Have they not learned their lesson on the F-2? They wound up with a marginally more capable F-16, for what... over $100 million an airframe?


Yeap but nice part of 100 million stayed in Japan, which is point of domestic fighter production. As things look now chance of war with Russia or China is much smaller then in 1980s when Japan start F-2 program. So domestic fighter today is even more logical, you invest money in your industry and in future you can export it, I am pretty sure Japan fighter would be interesting for foreigners.
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marsavian

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Unread post14 Apr 2019, 12:03

zero-one wrote:Super Cruising at 60,000 feet with 6 BVR missiles makes you almost invulnerable specially if you're a stealth fighter.


Super cruising at high altitude will give you a noticeable IR profile something IRSTs will spot in the cloudless cold so you may have kinematic advantages up so high and fast but you will trade in some IR stealth for the privilege.

zero-one wrote:If you were given a choice for what to bring in an A-A mission, which one would you choose between the F-22 and F-35 ? I think most people would choose the F-22. But since it's no longer in production and is banned for export, you have to go with the F-35. I'm not saying its a bad choice but if you had a choice, you'd go with the Raptor on that fight.


For fighting each other I would pick the F-35 because of its IR sensors and laser because if their Stealth/EW cancels each other out that could be the difference between getting an AAM targeting solution or not. However for the pure interceptor role which is the main requirement here I agree F-22 is best suited.
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madrat

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Unread post14 Apr 2019, 13:29

Production will never be large enough to get it down anywhere close to $100 million unless it's the size of an F-5. I don't think they would be looking at any less than $350 million a unit for a domestic F-35 class fighter. They could maybe get it closer to $200 million if they start off with what they know from F-15J production and forget all aspect stealth. They could even find a partner with a US partner to speed up airframe development, but skinning and engines will require domestic development. More or less aiming for an F-22 equality could even be as high as $500 million apiece.
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zero-one

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Unread post14 Apr 2019, 15:39

marsavian wrote:Super cruising at high altitude will give you a noticeable IR profile something IRSTs will spot in the cloudless cold so you may have kinematic advantages up so high and fast but you will trade in some IR stealth for the privilege.


We don't know how effective that counter tactic would be. This is one of the things Raptor pilots brag about. And Typhoon pilots say they are the only ones who can hang with the Raptor High and fast. If it was easy to counter using IRST, then super cruise wouldn't be a capability sought after by everyone.

zero-one wrote:For fighting each other I would pick the F-35


I'd still go with the Raptor. Remember VLO doesn't just make it difficult for Radar but also for IRST and Passive EWS. And in Stealth vs Stealth, detection and engagement ranges will be reduced for sure. And we have F-22 and F-35 pilots saying flat out the Raptor is better for close range engagements. DAS or No.

I'm gona look like an F-35 hater here, but I love that plane. I just don't think its better than the Raptor, specifically for A-A. Its better for everything else. Japan is used to having the best A-A in the world. They operated F-15Js when the Eagle was still king of the sky. Now they're relegated to the F-35, as good as it is, it's not king of the sky and everybody has em. They want to have the best.
Last edited by zero-one on 14 Apr 2019, 15:51, edited 1 time in total.
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milosh

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Unread post14 Apr 2019, 15:48

Those were proposals:
http://images.china.cn/attachement/jpg/ ... 991d0d.jpg

http://tokyoexpress.info/wp-content/upl ... wamoto.jpg

http://livedoor.blogimg.jp/zap2/imgs/6/4/64fa2e57.jpg

Last one look like was selected. First one is typical LM, second one is combination of Su-57 and YF-23, and last one is LM design but with some mods primarily horizontals and side missile pod instead side bay.

http://livedoor.blogimg.jp/corez18c24-m ... f2ffbc.jpg

Wing AESA probable L-band.

So Japs took ideas from others, airframe similar to F-22 (proven design), sensors from F-35 and Su-57.
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Unread post14 Apr 2019, 16:31

milosh wrote:Those were proposals:
http://images.china.cn/attachement/jpg/ ... 991d0d.jpg

http://tokyoexpress.info/wp-content/upl ... wamoto.jpg

http://livedoor.blogimg.jp/zap2/imgs/6/4/64fa2e57.jpg

Last one look like was selected. First one is typical LM, second one is combination of Su-57 and YF-23, and last one is LM design but with some mods primarily horizontals and side missile pod instead side bay.

http://livedoor.blogimg.jp/corez18c24-m ... f2ffbc.jpg

Wing AESA probable L-band.

So Japs took ideas from others, airframe similar to F-22 (proven design), sensors from F-35 and Su-57.




Do you happen to have by any chance more images of Japans radar layout for the aircraft like the probable L-band example?
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knowan

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Unread post14 Apr 2019, 21:26

Probably IFF antenna again, not radar.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post15 Apr 2019, 01:23

milosh wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Given what they're going to sink into this, they'd be much wiser in using that $ to acquire more F-35's. Have they not learned their lesson on the F-2? They wound up with a marginally more capable F-16, for what... over $100 million an airframe?


Yeap but nice part of 100 million stayed in Japan, which is point of domestic fighter production. As things look now chance of war with Russia or China is much smaller then in 1980s when Japan start F-2 program. So domestic fighter today is even more logical, you invest money in your industry and in future you can export it, I am pretty sure Japan fighter would be interesting for foreigners.


Honestly, this is getting old. As Japan isn't going to design and develop a Domestic Fighter Program. What it will do is join with a Partner or Partners to jointly develop a 6th Generation Fighter sometime in the next decade. Which, is not to say the final design couldn't be built in Japan. Yet, it won't be an indigenous program...
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Unread post15 Apr 2019, 07:15

Corsair1963 wrote:Honestly, this is getting old. As Japan isn't going to design and develop a Domestic Fighter Program.


Read back a little bit friend

zero-one wrote:News dated February 2019
https://thediplomat.com/2019/02/japan-t ... r-project/

The Japanese Ministry of Defense (MoD) confirmed that it has ruled out the development or local production of existing foreign-designed fighter jets to replace its fleet of F-2 multirole fighter aircraft, a Mitsubishi license-produced variant of Lockheed Martin’s F-16, by the 2030s, according to a MoD source.

The source said that the development and production of Japan’s new F-3 stealth fighter jet will be led by the country’s military aircraft industry with the possibility of collaboration with external partners including BAE Systems, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, and Northrop Grumman, Jane’s reports on February 4.


So the F-35 which is an existing foreign designed fighter will not be a candidate to replace the F-2. Instead they will focus on the ATD-X program which still looks like its still in the works.

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Corsair1963

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Unread post15 Apr 2019, 08:12

zero-one wrote:
So the F-35 which is an existing foreign designed fighter will not be a candidate to replace the F-2. Instead they will focus on the ATD-X program which still looks like its still in the works.




I never said the F-35 would be a candidate to replace the F-2. I said Japan would develop a future 6th Generation Fighter with a partner or partners.

Honestly, don't know why some have such a hard time understanding that??? :?
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Unread post15 Apr 2019, 08:20

What you said was Japan "Will not develop a domestic fighter" and will simply join with partners to collaborate on a 6th gen platform.

Japan's statement is different. They want to develop a domestic fighter with just a possibility of inviting partners to join them.
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Unread post15 Apr 2019, 08:27

zero-one wrote:What you said was Japan "Will not develop a domestic fighter" and will simply join with partners to collaborate on a 6th gen platform.

Japan's statement is different. They want to develop a domestic fighter with just a possibility of inviting partners to join them.




Japan won't lead such a program. That is why I stated it "will not develop a domestic fighter program". Which, doesn't mean it won't continue with the ATD-X. As a matter of fact it needs to do the later. Otherwise, it would have nothing to bring to the table. (technology wise)
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Unread post15 Apr 2019, 08:46

I doubt that, Japan is low key, partly because they could not export weapons and have 0 combat experience since WW2.

But they achieved some pretty remarkable things.
-J/FPS-3 1st Ground bassed AESA
-J/APG-1 was the First AESA on a fighter,
-AAM-4B First AESA on an operational missile which no body else has by the way.
-Their XF-9 engine which has a rated max thrust of 33,000 lbs will be one of the most powerful fighter engines ever when they finish it.

Personally I put their military aerospace tech on par with the UK's if not a little higher since they are richer than the UK on GDP terms
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Unread post15 Apr 2019, 09:14

zero-one wrote:I doubt that, Japan is low key, partly because they could not export weapons and have 0 combat experience since WW2.

But they achieved some pretty remarkable things.
-J/FPS-3 1st Ground bassed AESA
-J/APG-1 was the First AESA on a fighter,
-AAM-4B First AESA on an operational missile which no body else has by the way.
-Their XF-9 engine which has a rated max thrust of 33,000 lbs will be one of the most powerful fighter engines ever when they finish it.

Personally I put their military aerospace tech on par with the UK's if not a little higher since they are richer than the UK on GDP terms



Japan has a capable aerospace industry. Yet, most on the civilian not the military side. Only fighter that it has built in the last 70 years was the F-2. Which, was heavily based on the US F-16. Even then they had considerable assistance! (from Lockheed Martin) Plus, it almost "broke the bank" in the process!

As a matter of fact one of the reasons why the ATD-X / X-2 was developed as a "Demonstrator". Was because Japan learned it didn't have much of the technology needed to develop the proposed F-3 alone. In addition to attempt to do so would have been prohibitively expensive!

Now fast forward to today and nothing has change......
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Unread post15 Apr 2019, 09:29

zero-one wrote:Personally I put their military aerospace tech on par with the UK's if not a little higher since they are richer than the UK on GDP terms


I thought the below report by the Society of Japanese aerospace companies is quite useful to understand their capabilities.
http://www.sjac.or.jp/common/pdf/sjac_g ... -2019E.pdf
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