JASDF F-35A crashed

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marauder2048

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Unread post10 Apr 2019, 23:18

Wait..the pilot was a four-ship flight lead for an at night, over-water ACM training mission with a mere 60 hours in
the F-35?!
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Tiger05

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Unread post10 Apr 2019, 23:38

steve2267 wrote:Play at the Tom Clancy and "he musta been a spy" claptrap if you must... but it diminishes the forum, and disrespects the pilot and the professionalism of the Japanese military.


Agreed. I would expect to see those ridiculous theories about a possible defection on forums like Keypub but not here. This is a serious forum.
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Unread post11 Apr 2019, 01:18

marauder2048 wrote:Wait..the pilot was a four-ship flight lead for an at night, over-water ACM training mission with a mere 60 hours in the F-35?!

Who otherwise has 3,200 hours in fighter aircraft. TWICE my total after approx. 6 flying years in 9.5 years in RAN (FAA).

I don't believe they were carrying out ACM at night. Maneuvring as a formation against pretend or real? foe but ACM WVR? No. Be in a black room with lights off/aircraft lights off. Sure F-35s have radar and vHUD for targets via DAS. What do any lesser others have? NADA similar so no 'within visual range' at night. NO CAN SEE VISUAL. Capiche? 8) BVR? Of course. :roll:
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Corsair1963

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Unread post11 Apr 2019, 03:15

My understanding is the pilot had just taken off and was less than 90 miles off the eastern coast of Japan. When he called and aborted the mission. Clearly, he was having a major issue. Then no more contact with him after that....
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Unread post11 Apr 2019, 03:22

Corsair1963 wrote:My understanding is the pilot had just taken off and was less than 90 miles off the eastern coast of Japan. When he called and aborted the mission. Clearly, he was having a major issue. Then no more contact with him after that....

Here is one official timeline in this thread from 'Gamera' (other 'times' say the same) 28 minutes after take-off PROBLEM.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=55255&p=416449&hilit=Aomori#p416449
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Unread post11 Apr 2019, 04:32

Salute!

Guilty as charged of discussing "defection", but you start with all possible scenarios and then throw out one after the other. Shoot me now.

Not sure where the data recorder is, and it may not be on the seat as it was for our Viper. But it will be invaluable compared with determining the cause of the Marine Bee crash last year.
++++++++++++++
From Spaz, re the pilot's experience.
Who otherwise has 3,200 hours in fighter aircraft. TWICE my total after approx. 6 flying years in 9.5 years in RAN (FAA)


Well, this old fart had 2200 hours by the 6 year point, and 3300 + by the time I got to the Viper, and that included almost 3 years of not flying anything. And do you think I led a formation with 60 hours in the Viper? Maybe sat in the pit of the family model and helped some nugget learn to fly the thing?

Think about bringing the new planes online and where you get the "experienced" folks that first year or so. I was the high time guy in the 16th in June 1979 . I got the Command Pilot "toilet bowl" on my wings the next summer, and yet the Ops Officer was older and more senior but didn't have the hours yet.

So the experience and time in type for this mishap pilot seems very realistic and at least as good as our own F-35 cadre.

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Unread post11 Apr 2019, 06:00

Yeah BUT no BUT Yeah BUTT that 'old fart' was in a shootin' war - my helo flying training buddies went to it in 1970. IIRC they had some thousand + hours in that year in Vietnam flying Iroquois Slicks & Gunships (TAIPANS). Jet Pilots in the RAN FAA in the early years of the A4G had scarce hours due to availability from spares shortages (all going to USN in the war) and just getting up to speed with only ten - got better later when war ended and we had ten more A4G Skyhawks. <sigh>

Then once onboard flying time was perhaps on average once or twice a week if that. Mostly the MELBOURNE was steaming FLAT OUT to get from A to B in VAST PACIFIC SEA - usually they were LATE-they're LATE-for that VERY IMPORTANT DATE!
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Gamera

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Unread post11 Apr 2019, 11:08

steve2267 wrote:Crash reportedly occurred around 7:30pm local time.


https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/japan/a ... &year=2019

FWIW, on 2019/04/09, at Aomori, sunrise was 5:08, and sunset 18:09.
Accident time was 19:27, and probably very dark.
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Unread post11 Apr 2019, 12:44

Do you know the moon situation along with cloud cover etc.? Just happened today on the accident of a senior RAAF pilot crashing into the sea daytime during his conversion to type. It is 'unknown' why and what happened because the aircraft and pilot not recovered. However this website Aviation Safety Network reports:
"[MIRAGE IIO] A3-77 Delivered 13/04/67. Crashed 11/05/67, into sea off Newcastle NSW. Pilot killed during conversion course was Wing Commander Vance Drummond - was to be 3 Sqn CO. Suspect pilot incapacitated."

As fate would have it as a young pilot under training Vance crashed his Wirraway into a lake in 1950:
"...Royal Australian Air Force pilot Vance Drummond was completing a training flight from the Point Cook air base near Geelong in October 1950 when he crashed the Wirraway into Lake Corangamite, then full of water. He survived with minor injuries and went on to become a decorated fighter pilot, serving in the Korean and Vietnam wars and leading the RAAF Black Diamonds [SABRE] aerobatic team...." https://www.standard.net.au/story/19195 ... rangamite/
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playloud

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Unread post11 Apr 2019, 14:59

Moon was Waxing Crescent. About 15% illumination. At the time of radar contact loss, it would have been about 27 degrees above the western horizon.
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Unread post11 Apr 2019, 20:24

Thanks 'youLoudPlayerYou'. :mrgreen: Without having seen any F-35 simulator etc. I would guess that DAS would provide at least an horizon due to the ambient light from the moon. Having a horizon is extremely helpful to combat any Spatial DISorientation. One would 'lock on' to the internal artificial horizon in other aircraft to combat SD and BELIEVE in it!
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marauder2048

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Unread post11 Apr 2019, 23:57

spazsinbad wrote:
marauder2048 wrote:Wait..the pilot was a four-ship flight lead for an at night, over-water ACM training mission with a mere 60 hours in the F-35?!

Who otherwise has 3,200 hours in fighter aircraft. TWICE my total after approx. 6 flying years in 9.5 years in RAN (FAA).

I don't believe they were carrying out ACM at night. Maneuvring as a formation against pretend or real? foe but ACM WVR? No. Be in a black room with lights off/aircraft lights off. Sure F-35s have radar and vHUD for targets via DAS. What do any lesser others have? NADA similar so no 'within visual range' at night. NO CAN SEE VISUAL. Capiche? 8) BVR? Of course. :roll:



In the USAF, he would only meet the bare minimum requirements to start flight lead upgrade *training* for the F-35
assuming he was previously qualified as a four-ship flight lead on his older type.

That's pretty far from being an actual four-ship flight lead for *anything* at night and over water.
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Unread post12 Apr 2019, 00:49

Salute!

I take issue with Marauder,

Last I looked at some incident reports, they were taking 1500 hour folks for the Thunderbirds! and after checking, one solo had about 1200 hours. None of the current T-birds had over 2400 hours except #3 who flew commerically before USAF and still has basic wings without the star (prolly watching the autopilot from L.A. to Boston, but he must nbe a good stick, huh?).

So the current T-Bird Commander has 2400 hours and leads the premier Air Force flight?

In all fairness, you have to start with somebody that has zero hours in the new jet, and that pilot helps another to learn to fly the thing. And that newbie plus 'Adam" helps two or three more. Then those help three or four more. You know? The "begats" like you see in the Bible.

I was one of those charter members in the Viper, so I have a special connection with most that flew the thing or still fly it.

Something bad happened, and the SOB paid the price for flying the latest and greatest when it happened. We learned a lot in the three planes I flew that became operational the first year I flew them. So I think there's something else at work besides a newbie in a new jet.

Gums sends...
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Unread post12 Apr 2019, 01:05

spazsinbad wrote:Thanks 'youLoudPlayerYou'. :mrgreen: Without having seen any F-35 simulator etc. I would guess that DAS would provide at least an horizon due to the ambient light from the moon. Having a horizon is extremely helpful to combat any Spatial DISorientation. One would 'lock on' to the internal artificial horizon in other aircraft to combat SD and BELIEVE in it!


Spacial ‘d’ would certainly be in my list of potentialities also. But, moon phase/lux/az/el would have virtually no effect on DAS (a mid-ir thermal imager).
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Unread post12 Apr 2019, 01:13

Re: low time in model, I’d have to know more about the transition/conversion syllabus, the type of training mission code they were flying, how much recent flt and sim time in the last 30/60/90 days, and other recent personal activity. Then there’s the aircraft maintenance history...
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