Greece, Romania, and Poland.

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zerion

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Unread post05 Apr 2019, 01:29

Pentagon Eyes F-35 Sales to Greece, Romania and Poland

WASHINGTON —
The United States is considering expanding sales of Lockheed Martin Corp made F-35 fighter jets to five new nations including Romania, Greece and Poland as European allies bulk up their defenses in the face of a strengthening Russia, a Pentagon official told Congress on Thursday.

In written testimony submitted to the U.S. House of Representatives and seen by Reuters, Vice Admiral Mathias Winter — the head of the Pentagon's F-35 office — said that "future potential Foreign Military Sales customers include Singapore, Greece, Romania, Spain and Poland."

News of the new customers coincides with U.S. tension with F-35 development partner Turkey over Ankara's plans to buy a Russian missile defense system.

Foreign military sales like those of the F-35 are considered government-to-government deals where the Pentagon acts as an intermediary between the defense contractor and a foreign government...

https://www.voanews.com/a/pentagon-eyes ... 62419.html
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mixelflick

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Unread post05 Apr 2019, 15:03

Um, doesn't Greece have the S-300?

Turkey is going to love this...
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post05 Apr 2019, 16:07

Greece does not have Russian "technicians" working on their S-300.
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ricnunes

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Unread post05 Apr 2019, 17:34

And moreover, those S-300's were in fact purchased by the Republic of Cyprus (and not by Greece) but after the Turks opposed to this deal and threatened to invade Cyprus (or more precisely to invade the Republic of Cyprus or the part of Cyprus that doesn't belong to Turkey) it was decided to give the purchased S-300's to the Greeks in exchange for other weapons.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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swiss

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Unread post05 Apr 2019, 17:55

ricnunes wrote:And moreover, those S-300's were in fact purchased by the Republic of Cyprus (and not by Greece) but after the Turks opposed to this deal and threatened to invade Cyprus (or more precisely to invade the Republic of Cyprus or the part of Cyprus that doesn't belong to Turkey) it was decided to give the purchased S-300's to the Greeks in exchange for other weapons.


Interesting. This would also mean, the Nato has a very good understanding how capable the S-300 is. Has the US purchase there S-300 from the Greeks?

The Russians should be not very happy, if Poland purchase the Pac-3 and the F-35.
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ricnunes

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Unread post05 Apr 2019, 18:47

swiss wrote:Interesting. This would also mean, the Nato has a very good understanding how capable the S-300 is.


I would say that between the Greek S-300's and the S-300 battery owned by Slovakia (which is also a NATO member, this since 2004) that NATO has plenty of sources to "get acquainted" with the S-300.

swiss wrote:Has the US purchase there S-300 from the Greeks?


As far as I know, nope.
Also as far as I know the Greek S-300's are currently based on the island of Crete and operated by the Greek (Hellenic) Air Force.

swiss wrote:The Russians should be not very happy, if Poland purchase the Pac-3 and the F-35.


I would say that anything that makes the Russians unhappy will make the Pole extremely happy! It has been quite awhile since Poland left the Russian sphere of influence (Poland is a NATO member since 1999).
I would also dare to say that even during the communist era, that suspicion and even hatred nurtured among Poles against the Russians, namely because WWII - people often forget that in 1939, Poland was not only invaded by Germany but was also invaded as well by the USSR, this in 1939.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Unread post05 Apr 2019, 19:40

I'm not sure if it's ever been proposed, but offering land based versions of SM-6 as an upper tier SAM, along with THAAD and AEGIS ASHORE SM-3s to more allies, ought to tweak Turkey and Russia.
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Unread post05 Apr 2019, 19:56

SM-6 would work with Aegis Ashore just fine.
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wrightwing

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Unread post05 Apr 2019, 20:20

SpudmanWP wrote:SM-6 would work with Aegis Ashore just fine.

And it would offer a product for those looking for more range, without having to look at Russian/Chinese products, not to mention being compatible with F-35s.
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Unread post05 Apr 2019, 20:54

Imagine data-linked, ground-based, and IRST directed SM-6 shots that could extend for hundreds of miles over the horizon from the launcher :)

You could take an additional step of containerizing the SM-6 units and spread them around the country.
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Unread post05 Apr 2019, 21:21

swiss wrote:
ricnunes wrote:Interesting. This would also mean, the Nato has a very good understanding how capable the S-300 is.


I would say that between the Greek S-300's and the S-300 battery owned by Slovakia (which is also a NATO member, this since 2004) that NATO has plenty of sources to "get acquainted" with the S-300.


Indeed. It should be noted that Bulgaria has S-300s too so there are actually three NATO members using the system.

The US is also in possession of the system. It was discreetly acquired from Belarus back in the 90s for evaluation:

https://www.nytimes.com/1994/12/24/us/i ... -arms.html
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Unread post06 Apr 2019, 01:34

Poland hopeful of speeding F-35 acquisition :doh: [Who is worried about NO TURKISH F-35s? DEATH SPIRAL!] :devil:
05 Apr 2019 Bartosz Glowacki

"Poland believes it can accelerate the purchase of up to 32 Lockheed Martin F-35 combat aircraft, following suggestions that the USA is willing to expand the fifth-generation jet's operator base. In written testimony to the US House of Representatives, Vice Admiral Mat Winter, director of the Joint Strike Fighter programme, indicated that the Department of Defense was considering sales to countries including Greece, Poland, Romania and Spain….

..."Since the US side talks about it publicly, it means that the purchase can be accelerated," says defence minister Mariusz Blaszczak. "I am happy with this information. This is not a surprise because we have already started negotiations [with the USA]. I have prepared the legal and financial basis to acquire at least 32 fifth-generation combat aircraft."

Lockheed executive vice-president international Richard Edwards says talks on the acquisition should proceed very quickly, but cautions that the Foreign Military Sales process cannot be rushed. If a contract was signed now, he says, deliveries could be possible in 2024.

Unofficially, it is believed Warsaw will buy a first tranche of 16 F-35s.... In total, Warsaw could require as many as 48 of the stealthy type."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... on-457275/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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zerion

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Unread post14 Apr 2019, 18:05

The F-35 Plays Starring Role In Exercise “INIOCHOS 2019” in Greece

...

However, as mentioned above, the main difference from last year was the presence of a 5th generation aircraft: the Italian F-35, at their first participation in a multinational exercise abroad.

“The experience has been amazing, because we had the opportunity to exploit all capabilities of the weapon system, performing both air-to-air and air-to-ground missions, SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses) and DEAD (Destruction of Enemy Air Defenses) missions,” “Driver”, the commander of the 13° Gruppo, commented after “INIOCHOS”.

Throughout the exercise, the Italian jets (F-35, Tornado IDS and ECR) have carried out 74 missions, totalling approximately 250 flying hours.

“Due to the fact that it is a medium-scale exercise, INIOCHOS 2019 provides the ItAF with a high level of training and unique experience of partecipation. Firstly, the variety of weapon systems involved in the exercise is an enormous chance that, obviously, it is not so common during our daily training. Moreover, we had the opportunity to enhance cooperation whitin partecipating countires. Finally, INIOCHOS gives us the opportunity to perform in a complex scenario a full spectrum of missions such as CAS (Close Air Support), DT (Dynamic targeting), SCAR ( Strike coordination and reconnaissance), OCA (Offensive counter air), IADS (Air Operations versus integrated Air Defence System) and DCA (Defensive Counter Air). All these kind of missions have been carried out simultaneously, during a single COMAO (Composite Air Operation),” told us the chief of the Italian detachment.

Interestingly, the F-35s flew side-to-side with the Tornado ECR of the 155° Gruppo, a variant of the baseline “Tonka” equipped with electronic warfare equipment and weapons for the suppression of enemy air defences and for electronic and tactical reconnaissance, that the Lightning II is expected to replace in the future. The Tornado ECRs performed several SEAD and DEAD (Suppression/Destruction of Enemy Air Defenses) in a complex scenario in which Hellenic Land and Sea forces simulated to be enemy threats. In this context, in order to make the scenario more challenging and realistic, and also to let the crews train, these missions have been carried out with the use of CATM-88B captive air training missiles.

“F-35A have carried out several combined missions with all the partecipating weapon systems which are usually called COMAOs (Composite Air Operations). In these COMAOs there is a rotating mission commander that plans, arranges and organizes the available weapon systems, with the help of the other partecipating countries, in order to accomplish the task of the mission.”

The F-35 attracted the interest of both pilots, observers and photographers who attended the “INIOCHOS 2019”: the aircraft was all over the news in Greece during the DV (Distinghished Visitor) day of the drills, attended by Defense Minister Evangelos Apostolakis who, during the press conference said: “Beyond the upgrade of the F-16 fighter jets, we are in the process of selecting a new plane for Greece, so we can gradually move to the new generation of aircraft.” Indeed, it seems like Greece has started considering the 5th generation aircraft as a replacement for at least 23 F-16C/D aircraft.

https://theaviationist.com/2019/04/12/t ... in-greece/
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Corsair1963

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Unread post15 Apr 2019, 01:15

While, I see Poland possibly even Greece as likely F-35 Customers. I have a hard time believing Romania could afford the F-35. At least in the near future...
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Unread post17 Apr 2019, 01:59

Corsair1963 wrote:While, I see Poland possibly even Greece as likely F-35 Customers. I have a hard time believing Romania could afford the F-35. At least in the near future...


While I agree financing is likely an issue for Romania (as it would be with Greece, too), its political leadership has been clear and adamant on the procurement of "one squadron".

Dates are sparingly given, In 2010 Romania's military leadership stated it wished to acquire F-35s. Source (in Romanian): https://archive.is/20120909210724/http: ... in-romania

In 2017, the political leadership restated its interest in procuring the F-35, implying it'd be accounted for in the budget that runs until 2026. Sources (in Romanian): https://archive.is/20171228132103/http: ... 1.html%23n, https://archive.is/20171228131552/https ... 16443.html

All in all I think the political will is there, but financing it will be tough. I'll be interested to see if there's any additional Romanian responses following this U.S. overture, but even then I don't expect Romania to bite in the near future, as it's just not their prime priority at the moment.
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