Whats the Worst Post 1970s ACM platform

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

basher54321

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1813
  • Joined: 02 Feb 2014, 15:43

Unread post25 Feb 2019, 20:07

The first Gen MiG-23s are poor whichever way you look at it however the 2nd Gen ones were much improved. They did have some success in the Iran V Iraq war it seems - most of it (like any aircraft) really comes down to its operators and how it is used tactically including any supporting systems.


Not related to the MiG-23 of course is the case of 3 aircraft with one missile. If 3 aircraft are in a formation of unknown distance and not aware of attack and the lead jet (loaded with bombs) is hit with an AIM-54 - are any following jets immune from debris in any way outside of luck? Has anyone run this scenario to prove this is impossible?

Sadly it seems the Iraqi war records were possibly destroyed.
Offline

hythelday

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 551
  • Joined: 25 Jul 2016, 12:43
  • Location: Estonia

Unread post25 Feb 2019, 22:41

milosh wrote:Iranians done lot of propaganda BS about war, one of those it three MiG-23 down by one AIM-54 :roll:

I think even Tom Copper start doubting in what he wrote after he talked with iraq's pilots.


There recently was a video that featured two former USN and onr Iranian F-14 pilots talking about the plane; that's where I heard the story from. Supposedly they found the wrecks of all three. Phoenix is a big missile, so I do suppose that's not technically impossible, but I am highly scepticle of hundreds of claimed kills on Iranian side alone.
Offline

Tiger05

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

  • Posts: 89
  • Joined: 28 Apr 2005, 15:55

Unread post25 Feb 2019, 23:04

milosh wrote:Iranians done lot of propaganda BS about war, one of those it three MiG-23 down by one AIM-54 :roll:


Lt Col. Asad Adeli, the Iranian pilot involved in the incident, was invited to the US last year to attend the American Fighter Aces Association's panel on the F-14. He explained in details how it happened:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f5pmrePuQw

Feel free to not believe Col. Asadi but i would love to see you call him a liar in person... :roll:

Just because it doesnt fit you agenda doesnt mean it necessarily must be a lie.

milosh wrote:I think even Tom Copper start doubting in what he wrote after he talked with iraq's pilots.


As yes, the so trustworthy Iraqis. They are the experts at making false or exaggerated claims. They claimed kills on B-52s, F-111s and F-15Cs during Desert Storm... Need i say more?
Online
User avatar

marsavian

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1265
  • Joined: 02 Feb 2018, 21:55

Unread post26 Feb 2019, 10:59

hythelday wrote:I am highly scepticle of hundreds of claimed kills on Iranian side alone.


Remember that Iraq had constant reinforcements from Russia and France with some say actual pilots too over nearly 8 years while Iran had none from anyone. If IAF had not maintained a high kill ratio they would have had no fighters at the end of it and yet Tomcats still fly to this day as well as Phantoms and Tigers. The Shah probably saved the Ayatollahs ironically with his aircraft choices.
Offline

zero-one

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2179
  • Joined: 23 Jul 2013, 16:19
  • Location: New Jersey

Unread post26 Feb 2019, 13:55

Tiger05 wrote:Feel free to not believe Col. Asadi but i would love to see you call him a liar in person... :roll:

Just because it doesnt fit you agenda doesnt mean it necessarily must be a lie.


I'm not gona accuse the Iranians of being liars but at the same time, their claims make it difficult for me to believe the stories.

So you're telling me that in the history of air combat the farthest air to air kill achieved is just around 20 NM away except for the IIAF using export versions of US systems who managed to score kills twice or even 3 times further?

In their defense The Iran-Iraq war is probably the most modern air war that lasted for years,
All the other post Vietnam air wars lasted weeks even days. (Israel might have some that lasted a bit longer)
the longer a war lasts the more chances something amazing takes place like those dumb bombs killing air to air targets in Vietnam.

Anyway, I'm on the fence with their claims, not saying they're false, but I'm not gona eat it all up just yet.
Offline

mixelflick

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3446
  • Joined: 20 Mar 2010, 10:26
  • Location: Parts Unknown

Unread post26 Feb 2019, 16:03

zero-one wrote:
Tiger05 wrote:Feel free to not believe Col. Asadi but i would love to see you call him a liar in person... :roll:

Just because it doesnt fit you agenda doesnt mean it necessarily must be a lie.


I'm not gona accuse the Iranians of being liars but at the same time, their claims make it difficult for me to believe the stories.

So you're telling me that in the history of air combat the farthest air to air kill achieved is just around 20 NM away except for the IIAF using export versions of US systems who managed to score kills twice or even 3 times further?

In their defense The Iran-Iraq war is probably the most modern air war that lasted for years,
All the other post Vietnam air wars lasted weeks even days. (Israel might have some that lasted a bit longer)
the longer a war lasts the more chances something amazing takes place like those dumb bombs killing air to air targets in Vietnam.

Anyway, I'm on the fence with their claims, not saying they're false, but I'm not gona eat it all up just yet.


I believe them (most anyway), and I'll tell you why...

We know from test the Phoenix scored 5 hits and 1 near miss (assumed lethal) on everything from low and slow flying drones to high and fast. The Phoenix was custom made for such long range engagements, or at least long(er) ranged than the typical 20 mile (give or take) BVR kills.

I'm not crystal clear on this, but I don't think those drones were equipped with high powered ECM - nor did they appear to be maneuvering all that aggressively. We know that many of the Iraqi aircraft didn't have RWR, and even if they did knowing/seeing a Phoenix approaching would have been very difficult (in most instances, it attacks from the top down). Very difficult to see/defend against.

That and if they did have a RWR, they ran if painted by the AWG-9.

They apparently had a very healthy respect for the F-14/AWG-9/Phoenix. That had to come from experience...
Offline

zero-one

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2179
  • Joined: 23 Jul 2013, 16:19
  • Location: New Jersey

Unread post26 Feb 2019, 17:08

mixelflick wrote:
They apparently had a very healthy respect for the F-14/AWG-9/Phoenix. That had to come from experience...


I can see where you're coming from, and yes apparently those are the things that make me consider their testimonies.
But On the other hand the US has had very poor combat experience with the Phoenix missile with no combat kills and they had the more advanced C models.

Anyway, I know that doesn't invalidate the Iranian claims, I mean just because you had no success with a certain tool doesn't mean everyone else should have the same experience right. However exaggerations on the story like how 18 miles suddenly becomes 65 miles on the debrief is another discussion altogether.
Offline

sprstdlyscottsmn

Elite 4K

Elite 4K

  • Posts: 4484
  • Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 01:24
  • Location: Phoenix, Az, USA

Unread post26 Feb 2019, 17:11

zero-one wrote:But On the other hand the US has had very poor combat experience with the Phoenix missile with no combat kills and they had the more advanced C models.
If you recall the USN use of Phoenix all ended with a "failure to ignite". This was determined to be because the ground crew had improperly installed the motor ignition fuse, or something along those lines. Poor ground handling is the reason the USN never had success with the AIM-54 the one day they tried to use it in combat.
"Spurts"

-Pilot
-Aerospace Engineer
-Army Medic
-FMS Systems Engineer
Offline

zero-one

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2179
  • Joined: 23 Jul 2013, 16:19
  • Location: New Jersey

Unread post27 Feb 2019, 04:35

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:If you recall the USN use of Phoenix all ended with a "failure to ignite". This was determined to be because the ground crew had improperly installed the motor ignition fuse, or something along those lines. Poor ground handling is the reason the USN never had success with the AIM-54 the one day they tried to use it in combat.


I know its just Wikipedia, but they did state their sources. For what its worth, heres what it says:

On January 5, 1999, a pair of US F-14s fired two Phoenixes at Iraqi MiG-25s southeast of Baghdad. Both AIM-54s' rocket motors failed and neither missile hit its target.

On September 9, 1999, another US F-14 launched an AIM-54 at an Iraqi MiG-23 that was heading south into the no-fly zone from Al Taqaddum air base west of Baghdad. The missile missed, eventually going into the ground after the Iraqi fighter reversed course and fled north.


So according to them, 3 launches, 2 motor failures and 1 successfully evaided
Offline

sprstdlyscottsmn

Elite 4K

Elite 4K

  • Posts: 4484
  • Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 01:24
  • Location: Phoenix, Az, USA

Unread post27 Feb 2019, 05:47

I forgot that second one, thanks!
"Spurts"

-Pilot
-Aerospace Engineer
-Army Medic
-FMS Systems Engineer
Offline

Tiger05

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

  • Posts: 89
  • Joined: 28 Apr 2005, 15:55

Unread post27 Feb 2019, 13:03

zero-one wrote:
I'm not gona accuse the Iranians of being liars but at the same time, their claims make it difficult for me to believe the stories.

So you're telling me that in the history of air combat the farthest air to air kill achieved is just around 20 NM away except for the IIAF using export versions of US systems who managed to score kills twice or even 3 times further?


Well, until very recently, the Phoenix was pretty much in a class of its own in terms of sheer range so i dont know why this is so hard to believe. Besides the Iranian claims, we know that the Phoenix was successfully tested at extreme range multiple times (including against manoeuvring, fighter-sized targets). What more do you want?

zero-one wrote:Anyway, I'm on the fence with their claims, not saying they're false, but I'm not gona eat it all up just yet.


Agreed that not all reported 'kills' should be taken at face value. Many of those hundreds of 'kills' are actually claims not confirmed kills. As is often the case, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

One thing however that isnt even up for debate is that the F-14 did very well during the Iran-Iraq war. Iraq was never able to gain air superiority during the conflict as long as sufficient numbers of Iranian F-14s were operational. And Iraqis were clearly intimidated by the F-14's capabilities. On many occasions, Iraqi fighters would turn back as soon as they detected the characteristic emissions of the AWG-9. That same behavior was observed during ODS with Iraqi pilots trying their luck against F-15s rather than going against F-14s...
Offline

Tiger05

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

  • Posts: 89
  • Joined: 28 Apr 2005, 15:55

Unread post27 Feb 2019, 13:30

zero-one wrote:But On the other hand the US has had very poor combat experience with the Phoenix missile with no combat kills and they had the more advanced C models.


The USN used the AIM-54 in anger on only two occasions. Not enough to draw any conclusion on its effectiveness IMO. As as sprstdlyscottsmn pointed out, ground crew error was to blame in one instance. I heard the same thing from a former F-14 ordie on another forum.
Offline

mixelflick

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3446
  • Joined: 20 Mar 2010, 10:26
  • Location: Parts Unknown

Unread post27 Feb 2019, 14:44

Tiger05 wrote:
zero-one wrote:
I'm not gona accuse the Iranians of being liars but at the same time, their claims make it difficult for me to believe the stories.

So you're telling me that in the history of air combat the farthest air to air kill achieved is just around 20 NM away except for the IIAF using export versions of US systems who managed to score kills twice or even 3 times further?


Well, until very recently, the Phoenix was pretty much in a class of its own in terms of sheer range so i dont know why this is so hard to believe. Besides the Iranian claims, we know that the Phoenix was successfully tested at extreme range multiple times (including against manoeuvring, fighter-sized targets). What more do you want?

zero-one wrote:Anyway, I'm on the fence with their claims, not saying they're false, but I'm not gona eat it all up just yet.


Agreed that not all reported 'kills' should be taken at face value. Many of those hundreds of 'kills' are actually claims not confirmed kills. As is often the case, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

One thing however that isnt even up for debate is that the F-14 did very well during the Iran-Iraq war. Iraq was never able to gain air superiority during the conflict as long as sufficient numbers of Iranian F-14s were operational. And Iraqis were clearly intimidated by the F-14's capabilities. On many occasions, Iraqi fighters would turn back as soon as they detected the characteristic emissions of the AWG-9. That same behavior was observed during ODS with Iraqi pilots trying their luck against F-15s rather than going against F-14s...[/quote]

Decided to try their luck against F-15's...

I don't know if there's a stronger testament to the F-14 than that. Bear in mind this was after USAF F-15's had cleaned their clocks in the opening days of the war. Mig-23's, Mig-25's, Mig-29's... it didn't matter. All fell victim to the F-15.

Oh, what I would have given to see a contest between F-110 powered F-14B's or D's vs. the Mig-25. Or even better, the first and only meeting between F-14B's/D's and the Mig-29. Hell. you can throw the A model in there for all I care. I'm betting the F-14 would have carried the day. Who knows? With an impressive showing in DS the F-14 may have survived longer and/or the up-rated models may have been bought.

Probably wasn't going to happen though, given the Iranians still flew them and if I'm not mistaken, there was some concern about the two operating in proximity to each other..
Offline

sprstdlyscottsmn

Elite 4K

Elite 4K

  • Posts: 4484
  • Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 01:24
  • Location: Phoenix, Az, USA

Unread post27 Feb 2019, 14:52

mixelflick wrote:
Decided to try their luck against F-15's...

I don't know if there's a stronger testament to the F-14 than that. Bear in mind this was after USAF F-15's had cleaned their clocks in the opening days of the war. Mig-23's, Mig-25's, Mig-29's... it didn't matter. All fell victim to the F-15.

And how well did that work out for them? 31:0 in the F-15s favor? One skilled Foxbat driver got a hit but failed to kill. Given enough time the Iraqis may have been able to develop a counter tactic, just like they did to shoot down a Tomcat or two.
"Spurts"

-Pilot
-Aerospace Engineer
-Army Medic
-FMS Systems Engineer
Offline

hythelday

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 551
  • Joined: 25 Jul 2016, 12:43
  • Location: Estonia

Unread post27 Feb 2019, 16:10

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
mixelflick wrote:
Decided to try their luck against F-15's...

I don't know if there's a stronger testament to the F-14 than that. Bear in mind this was after USAF F-15's had cleaned their clocks in the opening days of the war. Mig-23's, Mig-25's, Mig-29's... it didn't matter. All fell victim to the F-15.

And how well did that work out for them? 31:0 in the F-15s favor? One skilled Foxbat driver got a hit but failed to kill. Given enough time the Iraqis may have been able to develop a counter tactic, just like they did to shoot down a Tomcat or two.


Yeah but there is no cheesy movie about F-15 that reminds some geezers about that time they were young way back in the 80. Amazing how some on this forum drool over F-14 "could have, would have" capabilities.
PreviousNext

Return to Modern Military Aircraft

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests