The Germans are coming!

Program progress, politics, orders, and speculation
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

lbk000

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 263
  • Joined: 04 May 2017, 16:19

Unread post03 Feb 2019, 05:03

The F-35 is indeed an hegemonic instrument. Germany recognizes it, and I think it's natural for a state that has traditionally been a regional power to want to resist and even to be in defiance of it.

The question you guys are refusing to approach is "Will a loss in capability haunt them"?
I think Germany believes that answer is "no", and I would generally agree with that assessment.

What they are doing is savvy; they are taking advantage of the proliferation of the F-35. The threat in being of allied F-35s will be sufficient deterrent to allow Germany to take a temporary loss in capability with little risk. In exchange, Germany will emerge a few decades later further distanced from American influence, even better postured to to exert her own influence.

To that end no matter what sort of mental horsetrading we do here, I don't believe Germany will accept any aircraft of US origin. The competition is a farce that nevertheless must be conducted, because competitions are a matter of protocol for Western democracies.
Offline

sprstdlyscottsmn

Elite 4K

Elite 4K

  • Posts: 4524
  • Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 01:24
  • Location: Phoenix, Az, USA

Unread post03 Feb 2019, 06:05

That is more or less how I saw it. They will choose the Tiffy, even though they are, what, 4 for 150 with them?
"Spurts"

-Pilot
-Aerospace Engineer
-Army Medic
-FMS Systems Engineer
Offline

hythelday

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 552
  • Joined: 25 Jul 2016, 12:43
  • Location: Estonia

Unread post03 Feb 2019, 14:35

madrat wrote:What about an F-15G built strictly for their needs? European partner for the ECCM/EW suite. Maybe even offer non-AESA radar.


Nonsense.
Offline

f4u7_corsair

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 128
  • Joined: 27 Apr 2015, 17:28

Unread post03 Feb 2019, 15:13

lbk000 wrote:The F-35 is indeed an hegemonic instrument. Germany recognizes it, and I think it's natural for a state that has traditionally been a regional power to want to resist and even to be in defiance of it.

The question you guys are refusing to approach is "Will a loss in capability haunt them"?
I think Germany believes that answer is "no", and I would generally agree with that assessment.

What they are doing is savvy; they are taking advantage of the proliferation of the F-35. The threat in being of allied F-35s will be sufficient deterrent to allow Germany to take a temporary loss in capability with little risk. In exchange, Germany will emerge a few decades later further distanced from American influence, even better postured to to exert her own influence.

To that end no matter what sort of mental horsetrading we do here, I don't believe Germany will accept any aircraft of US origin. The competition is a farce that nevertheless must be conducted, because competitions are a matter of protocol for Western democracies.

Finally someone who understands that national and international security are not open and perfect markets.

But there's only Americans to believe that you can sell them a tool supporting American (declining) hegemony without other countries having their word.
Offline
User avatar

element1loop

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1402
  • Joined: 31 Dec 2015, 05:35
  • Location: Australia

Unread post03 Feb 2019, 16:26

f4u7_corsair wrote:
lbk000 wrote:The F-35 is indeed an hegemonic instrument. Germany recognizes it, and I think it's natural for a state that has traditionally been a regional power to want to resist and even to be in defiance of it.

The question you guys are refusing to approach is "Will a loss in capability haunt them"?
I think Germany believes that answer is "no", and I would generally agree with that assessment.

What they are doing is savvy; they are taking advantage of the proliferation of the F-35. The threat in being of allied F-35s will be sufficient deterrent to allow Germany to take a temporary loss in capability with little risk. In exchange, Germany will emerge a few decades later further distanced from American influence, even better postured to to exert her own influence.

To that end no matter what sort of mental horsetrading we do here, I don't believe Germany will accept any aircraft of US origin. The competition is a farce that nevertheless must be conducted, because competitions are a matter of protocol for Western democracies.

Finally someone who understands that national and international security are not open and perfect markets.

But there's only Americans to believe that you can sell them a tool supporting American (declining) hegemony without other countries having their word.



:roll: I can't believe this sort of stuff goes through European minds.

Yes, the US mil should have built something more to Justine and murky's liking, then more people would 'like' the USA, and everything would be all the more fabulous.

:mrgreen:
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
Online
User avatar

ricnunes

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2190
  • Joined: 02 Mar 2017, 14:29

Unread post03 Feb 2019, 16:39

element1loop wrote: :roll: I can't believe this sort of stuff goes through European minds.


I'll correct it for you:
I can't believe this sort of stuff goes through French and German minds.


I believe that we should start distinguishing that French and German don't represent the "whole European" concept.
A small example, related to the F-35:
- Belgium, Denmark, Italy, Netherlands, Norway and the UK are all European countries but they chose the F-35 and as such don't follow that "Franco-German" mindset.

:wink:
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
Offline
User avatar

element1loop

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1402
  • Joined: 31 Dec 2015, 05:35
  • Location: Australia

Unread post03 Feb 2019, 17:15

Sorry ric ... some European minds ... 8)
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
Online
User avatar

ricnunes

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2190
  • Joined: 02 Mar 2017, 14:29

Unread post03 Feb 2019, 18:28

element1loop wrote:Sorry ric ... some European minds ... 8)


No problem element1loop :mrgreen:
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
Offline

lbk000

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 263
  • Joined: 04 May 2017, 16:19

Unread post03 Feb 2019, 20:16

ricnunes wrote:- Belgium, Denmark, Italy, Netherlands, Norway and the UK are all European countries but they chose the F-35 and as such don't follow that "Franco-German" mindset.

They just lack ambition. :wink:
Offline

bumtish

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 379
  • Joined: 14 Nov 2008, 15:59

Unread post03 Feb 2019, 21:10

Belgium, Denmark, Norway, etc. are not stakeholders of significance in any fighter programme. They can pick the best deal in town.

As long as the motivation for the EF and Rafale programs only makes sense to Germany and France, then it remains their projects and planes.
Offline

magitsu

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 427
  • Joined: 12 Jun 2015, 22:12

Unread post03 Feb 2019, 22:14

Obviously rigged, but quite expected. After F-35A with German requirements probably F-16V would make the most sense for such a small buy. Now they either extend Tornado in the nuclear role until 2035, which would cost 8 billion according to Luftwaffe, or have a harrowing B61-12 integration experience. Even for F-35A Block 4 it will take from April 2019 to October 2024. They might end up needing that Tornado extension. https://www.news.com.au/technology/inno ... 458c832d63

Their 33 Tranche 1 replacement Typhoons seem quite affordable. 100 million euros each. Though obviously they are a bit cheaper to buy due to them having the simulators etc. already, unlike for a completely new fighter. https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/mi ... er,RGoPe1f
Offline
User avatar

element1loop

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1402
  • Joined: 31 Dec 2015, 05:35
  • Location: Australia

Unread post04 Feb 2019, 01:35

The idea they would pass on full 5th-gen airforce integration and to gaining experience with VLO, and its tactical benefits, to keep Tornado for 8 billion (euros?) or go for more EFs ... is bananas. One squadron of F-35A is going to ruin all European [French] aerospace and fighter development potential forever? ... what a circus.
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
Offline

madrat

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2329
  • Joined: 03 Mar 2010, 03:12

Unread post04 Feb 2019, 02:25

They could save a fortune just converting Typhoon new builds over either Tranche 1 Typhoon or the obsolete Tornado.

Until Germany gets back in line as an ally, let's just do ourselves a favor and keep Germany nuclear free. We can replace the relationship with cooperation with Poland.
Offline

h-bomb

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 305
  • Joined: 26 Apr 2009, 20:07
  • Location: South Central USA

Unread post04 Feb 2019, 04:46

madrat wrote:They could save a fortune just converting Typhoon new builds over either Tranche 1 Typhoon or the obsolete Tornado.

Until Germany gets back in line as an ally, let's just do ourselves a favor and keep Germany nuclear free. We can replace the relationship with cooperation with Poland.


Umm "Nuclear free" since when? "Lend a Nuke", confirmed weapons are in Belgium, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, and Turkey. They all have B61s. Personally I think they need to remove them from Turkey.

Does anyone have an reference that the Super Hornet was B61 certified? I know the legacy Hornets and F-35 are both supposed to be B61 certified. But I have never read that the Super Hornet was tested. Given the politics of the 1990's I could see that being skipped for cost reasons. I cannot even guess what it would cost to certify the Eurofighter.
Offline
User avatar

steve2267

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2203
  • Joined: 12 Jun 2016, 17:36

Unread post04 Feb 2019, 05:50

Offer the F-35 to Poland and Hungary. If they buy, then move the B61s from Germany to Poland, and from Turkey to Hungary. Problem solved. :beer:
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
PreviousNext

Return to Program and politics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests