F-35 JSF vs Eurofighter Typhoon

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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steve2267

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Unread post30 Jan 2019, 20:52

ricnunes wrote:
Regarding the F-35 and dogfight, I believe that many here are forgetting about DAS. That IMO is a real gamechanger when it comes to dogfight/WVR engagements since these are usually NOT won by the pilot which has the aircraft with the best agility (which the F-35 has plenty of it) but instead by the pilot which has the best Situational Awareness (SA) and DAS gives the (F-35) a level of SA that simply NO other aircraft can match.


Am not sure the military is ready to trust HAL just yet, but...

If / when an AI co-pilot is developed for the F-35, and what with DAS and other sensors, and some 600+ ways to Sunday to identify bogeys, and with the advent of MSDM / SACM... when the day arrives that the F-35 pilot can turn HAL loose and let him automatically identify and engage any WVR bogeys with SACM / 9X / MSDM / Slammer... that will be a rough day for the Rafale crews (and their apologists). Typhies too. (Don't want to forget them. Need I mention Gripens?)
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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kimjongnumbaun

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Unread post30 Jan 2019, 21:18

steve2267 wrote:
zero-one wrote:Yes but again my answer to that is, the lethality of HOBS is not equal for everyone.
A single Raptor not only survived but slaughtered 8 F-15s all armed with 9X and JHMCS
https://fightersweep.com/2526/helmet-mo ... -the-f-22/


I reserve judgement of "8 eagles slaughtered" vs "1 Raptor victory, no losses, and 6 mutual kills against Typhies / Rafales" without knowing the ROE's of the various engagements.


Dozer talks about 4 F-22s against 12 F-15s. No losses each time.

https://youtu.be/6pivtRMOf8s?t=2361

Another interview here where 1 F-22 took on 5 F-15s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ7MwfcjCa0
Last edited by kimjongnumbaun on 30 Jan 2019, 21:21, edited 1 time in total.
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ricnunes

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Unread post30 Jan 2019, 21:18

steve2267 wrote:Am not sure the military is ready to trust HAL just yet, but...

If / when an AI co-pilot is developed for the F-35, and what with DAS and other sensors, and some 600+ ways to Sunday to identify bogeys, and with the advent of MSDM / SACM... when the day arrives that the F-35 pilot can turn HAL loose and let him automatically identify and engage any WVR bogeys with SACM / 9X / MSDM / Slammer... that will be a rough day for the Rafale crews (and their apologists). Typhies too. (Don't want to forget them. Need I mention Gripens?)


I don't think that the F-35 needs HAL, Skynet or whatever AI to take advantage of DAS (and the entire F-35 Sensor fusion) and to automatically identify and engage any WVR bogeys in order to already have a massive advantage over other fighter aircraft (such as the Rafale/Typhoon/Gripen/SH/etc...) during WVR engagements.
The point is that if you're the pilot of those other aircraft (again Rafale/Typhoon/Gripen/SH/etc...) and despite having Helmet-mounted Display or HMDs (well, the Rafale still doesn't have it :wink: ) which allows the pilot to cue/lock sensors to target/bogeys, you still need to rely on your eyes (the Mk.1 Eyeball Sensor :mrgreen: ) in order to lock enemy aircraft specially if the enemy aircraft is outside the detection cone/area of its sensors, usually Radar or IRST. Or putting into another perspective, if you're turning/dogfighting against an enemy aircraft which is outside the detection area of your Radar/IRST you won't see the target bracket (such as a square) around the target/enemy aircraft and then you'll have to find it with your own eyes!

This dramatically changes with the F-35 and DAS in which the pilot will always see the target bracket around any target/bogey around the F-35 since DAS as a 360º coverage around the aircraft (as opposed to for example the Radar or IRST) and this even in a worse case scenario where DAS and the sensor fusion won't for some reason be able to fully identify the aircraft around the F-35.
Resuming it's far, far easier and much, much quicker to find, keep track, engage and kill an enemy aircraft which already have a colored bracket/square around it shown on the helmet display, compared to an aircraft that doesn't! And again, DAS makes sure that the enemy aircraft (or other aircraft around the F-35) always have a bracket/square around it :wink:
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post30 Jan 2019, 21:26

Not only all of that the F-35 pilot is aware 'which bogey to shoot first' via all the doodads - good within ten miles PLUS.
:devil: OR should one say 'via DOODAS' (do this - do that - do DAS). :doh:
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post31 Jan 2019, 07:16

zero-one wrote:I'm pretty sure Tiffy pilots will say that the F-35's BVR capabilities make it almost invisible just like the Raptor. But once they hit the merge things start to get interesting and they were able to have Lightning soup for lunch .

If they fought clean, we might even get reports that the Typhoon was "substantially superior" to the F-35 in any sort of close in engagement.

That when intercepting bombers, the Typhoon has the upper hand with longer ranged Meteor or because it can super-cruise, it can hang high and fast with the Raptor.

Point is, the Europeans are proud and will find ways to make their fighters look like they belong in the 5th gen league


There is no range, where Typhoon/Rafale pilots will be having Lightning soup.
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Unread post31 Jan 2019, 07:22

zero-one wrote:Well heres my take on this.

We can fall into the F-22 vs F-35 rabbit hole quick here, I believe the Raptor is a better air to air machine. But hey, for this argument lets say they are exactly equal in A-A.

If the Typhoon and Rafale were able to survive numerous exercises with the F-22 without totally humiliating themselves publicly, (infact they even got some good publicity with the whole "Raptor Salad" nonsense) then I think they'll just retain the same public image when they start dueling with F-35s.

But here is where it gets interesting, if France, Germany and other owners of the Typhoon/Rafale start getting a bit too interested in buying the F-35, then it gives us a clue on what must be going on behind closed doors.

The F-35 also had an outstanding 20:1 kill ratio in RedFlag 17-1, I think they were against F-15s and F-16s with all kinds of support and pods. Thats certainly formidable but I think the latest Typhoon and Rafale trenches would still make them look minuscule by comparison.

I have no doubt F-35s will kick some Typhoon/Rafale butt, however I won't be surprised if the kill ratio is just around 6:1 or something. Didn't the Raptor have a single kill, zero losses and 6 mutual kill scenario against the Rafale once, or something like that?

There were no mutual kills. The Rafale lost vs the Raptor (which by the way was a guns only fight.) Add missiles, and the Typhoon/Rafale die at much higher rates vs F-22 or F-35.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post31 Jan 2019, 07:39

zero-one wrote:
I have no doubt F-35s will kick some Typhoon/Rafale butt, however I won't be surprised if the kill ratio is just around 6:1 or something. Didn't the Raptor have a single kill, zero losses and 6 mutual kill scenario against the Rafale once, or something like that?




:lmao:
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Unread post31 Jan 2019, 08:02

steve2267 wrote:Yes, one way to compare Typhie vs Panther is to let them go head to head, mano-a-mano. A better way, IMO, is to pick some dollar (or euro) figure. Say $500M or $1B or $2B (more?) and figure out how many aircraft of each that monetary figure buys. Then either have X Typhies fight Y Panthers in a Red Flag type scenario and see who comes out on top. A better comparison, though, would be to assign missions to X Typhies and Y Panthers and score them each on how well they complete the assigned (Red Flag type) mission(s), because, with the possible exception of some Middle Eastern air forces, the chances of Typhies and Panthers ever going head to head is somewhere between slim and none.


They did the last one in Denmark during their fighter evaluation (although fully simulated). F-35 was clearly the better, although in DCA the difference was the smallest in mission effectiveness. Of course in survivability there was huge difference in all the demanding missions (CAS, DCA, AI, SEAD/DEAD).
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Unread post31 Jan 2019, 08:34

ricnunes wrote:The point is that if you're the pilot of those other aircraft (again Rafale/Typhoon/Gripen/SH/etc...) and despite having Helmet-mounted Display or HMDs (well, the Rafale still doesn't have it :wink: ) which allows the pilot to cue/lock sensors to target/bogeys, you still need to rely on your eyes (the Mk.1 Eyeball Sensor :mrgreen: ) in order to lock enemy aircraft specially if the enemy aircraft is outside the detection cone/area of its sensors, usually Radar or IRST. Or putting into another perspective, if you're turning/dogfighting against an enemy aircraft which is outside the detection area of your Radar/IRST you won't see the target bracket (such as a square) around the target/enemy aircraft and then you'll have to find it with your own eyes!

This dramatically changes with the F-35 and DAS in which the pilot will always see the target bracket around any target/bogey around the F-35 since DAS as a 360º coverage around the aircraft (as opposed to for example the Radar or IRST) and this even in a worse case scenario where DAS and the sensor fusion won't for some reason be able to fully identify the aircraft around the F-35.
Resuming it's far, far easier and much, much quicker to find, keep track, engage and kill an enemy aircraft which already have a colored bracket/square around it shown on the helmet display, compared to an aircraft that doesn't! And again, DAS makes sure that the enemy aircraft (or other aircraft around the F-35) always have a bracket/square around it :wink:


I agree fully that EODAS is likely very underrated system for air-to-air combat. Especially in situations where there are multiple aircraft in the air. No pilot can track several aircraft at once all the time and have full understanding who is who and where. EODAS does exactly that. F-35 pilot does not need to worry about misidentification or losing sight of enemy aircraft or if there is an enemy aircraft somewhere he can't see.

Another thing with EODAS is that it will instantly tell if someone fires a missile and if it's threatening to own aircraft. It will constantly track the missile giving the pilot ability to make best moves to avoid the missile. The sensor fusion will also know if the missile is RF missile or IR missile and launch the most suitable countermeasures at the best possible time. This ability must be huge survivability boost in real life WVR combat.

I think F-35 sensor fusion is another system that is really helpful even in WVR combat or real world combat which is not exactly WVR or BVR anymore. For example if one F-35 is fighting WVR with some enemy aircraft, another F-35 could be 10 nm away and kill that enemy aircraft with AMRAAM because he can be sure that he is not shooting down another F-35. Another thing is that if EODAS loses sight of enemy aircraft, there are still APG-81, ASQ-239, EOTS and other F-35s with similar systems that constantly track and ID that enemy aircraft and combine their information using sensor fusion. Sensor fusion will also task and cue other sensors to keep eye on that enemy aircraft and pilot does not have to do that. This must be another huge SA improvement over any 4th gen jet in real world air-to-air combat.
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Unread post31 Jan 2019, 09:25

hornetfinn wrote:
I agree fully that EODAS is likely very underrated system for air-to-air combat. Especially in situations where there are multiple aircraft in the air. No pilot can track several aircraft at once all the time and have full understanding who is who and where. EODAS does exactly that. F-35 pilot does not need to worry about misidentification or losing sight of enemy aircraft or if there is an enemy aircraft somewhere he can't see.

Another thing with EODAS is that it will instantly tell if someone fires a missile and if it's threatening to own aircraft. It will constantly track the missile giving the pilot ability to make best moves to avoid the missile. The sensor fusion will also know if the missile is RF missile or IR missile and launch the most suitable countermeasures at the best possible time. This ability must be huge survivability boost in real life WVR combat.

I think F-35 sensor fusion is another system that is really helpful even in WVR combat or real world combat which is not exactly WVR or BVR anymore. For example if one F-35 is fighting WVR with some enemy aircraft, another F-35 could be 10 nm away and kill that enemy aircraft with AMRAAM because he can be sure that he is not shooting down another F-35. Another thing is that if EODAS loses sight of enemy aircraft, there are still APG-81, ASQ-239, EOTS and other F-35s with similar systems that constantly track and ID that enemy aircraft and combine their information using sensor fusion. Sensor fusion will also task and cue other sensors to keep eye on that enemy aircraft and pilot does not have to do that. This must be another huge SA improvement over any 4th gen jet in real world air-to-air combat.



Yes, I think most don't even consider the F-35's Sensor Fusion or even Stealth WVR Aerial Combat. This is a huge advantage in addition to the "Panthers" exceptional flight performance.

Do we really need to remind the members of the forum of the "OODA loop"? Which, was developed by the late Col. John Boyd "observe–orient–decide–act"!
:devil:
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Unread post31 Jan 2019, 10:33

zero-one wrote:I'm pretty sure Tiffy pilots will say that the F-35's BVR capabilities make it almost invisible just like the Raptor. But once they hit the merge things start to get interesting and they were able to have Lightning soup for lunch .

If they fought clean, we might even get reports that the Typhoon was "substantially superior" to the F-35 in any sort of close in engagement.


You have to remember that Swiss F/A-18C was better than EF Typhoon, Dassault Rafale and JAS Gripen in WVR combat during their evaluation ten years ago. This was because JHMCS and AIM-9X combo was better than what the other aircraft had at the time. Now those systems have been improved afterwards, but F-35 is still definitely superior to Classic Hornet. It has better flight performance and it has far superior systems with HMD, EODAS, EOTS, other sensors and sensor fusion.
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Unread post31 Jan 2019, 11:10

zero-one wrote:I'm pretty sure Tiffy pilots will say that the F-35's BVR capabilities make it almost invisible just like the Raptor. But once they hit the merge things start to get interesting and they were able to have Lightning soup for lunch .

If they fought clean, we might even get reports that the Typhoon was "substantially superior" to the F-35 in any sort of close in engagement.



Seriously, you need to cut back on the "Medication" as it will lead to your undoing...... :?
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Unread post31 Jan 2019, 11:46

ricnunes wrote:And again, DAS makes sure that the enemy aircraft (or other aircraft around the F-35) always have a bracket/square around it


And I have no doubt the helmet display will also have an arrow pointing in the direction to look toward the highest priority bandit.

Auto-cued pilots as well.
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
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Unread post31 Jan 2019, 14:21

Most of these "compare RCS" treads are completely bogus. Why?
They always compare "clean" airframes. Do you go to war "clean"?

Compare combat capable aircraft.

Compare RCS values for Rafale and Tifffy and F-35 , Su-57 and J-10 and whatever, but do it fully loaded and combat ready with enough fuel and the proper bomb lay-out for a full on combat mission.

F-22 and F-35 remain stealth.
ALL OTHERS have combat ready RCS comparable to shouting out loud : "Here we are . Here we are !
Might as well paint them orange or pink.
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ricnunes

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Unread post31 Jan 2019, 17:09

element1loop wrote:
ricnunes wrote:And again, DAS makes sure that the enemy aircraft (or other aircraft around the F-35) always have a bracket/square around it


And I have no doubt the helmet display will also have an arrow pointing in the direction to look toward the highest priority bandit.

Auto-cued pilots as well.


Indeed, fully agree!
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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