SU-57 deployed to Syria

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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vilters

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Unread post22 Jan 2019, 16:23

They are gonna use the most sophisticated Russian tools to get that thing going no matter what we say, think or do.

Some random pliers, some torn screwdrivers, some rusty hammers, some rolls of duct tape and a gallon of superglue.
Then paint the thing pink and call it 7th gen to spook the crows. (Who will drop out of the sky laughing anyway).

While the levcons are actually a good idea? ? ? My barn doors have better hinges.

But?
As usual, they'll shine at airshows.
(Replacing molten engines every time they put air in the tires.)
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zero-one

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Unread post23 Jan 2019, 18:35

This may sound stupid for a lot of people but does the Su-57 have RWR?
I went through the avionics of the Su-57 (granted it was only Wikipedia) but I couldn't find it.
The Himalayas system is ECM? can it perform RWR? If not, then that means that the only long range detection method of the Su-57 is via Active radar
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milosh

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Unread post23 Jan 2019, 18:44

zero-one wrote:This may sound stupid for a lot of people but does the Su-57 have RWR?
I went through the avionics of the Su-57 (granted it was only Wikipedia) but I couldn't find it.
The Himalayas system is ECM? can it perform RWR? If not, then that means that the only long range detection method of the Su-57 is via Active radar


https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.word ... fa-russia/

Himalayas [RWR] – ESM
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zero-one

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Unread post23 Jan 2019, 19:40

milosh wrote: :cheers:

https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.word ... fa-russia/

Himalayas [RWR] – ESM

:cheers:
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milosh

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Unread post23 Jan 2019, 20:40

zero-one wrote:
milosh wrote: :cheers:

https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.word ... fa-russia/

Himalayas [RWR] – ESM

:cheers:


:)
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collimatrix

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Unread post24 Jan 2019, 13:25

zero-one wrote:This may sound stupid for a lot of people but does the Su-57 have RWR?
I went through the avionics of the Su-57 (granted it was only Wikipedia) but I couldn't find it.
The Himalayas system is ECM? can it perform RWR? If not, then that means that the only long range detection method of the Su-57 is via Active radar


On a fifth-gen fighter the line between RWR, radar, ECM and IFF is blurred, since an AESA can perform any of those tasks. The SU-57, by reports released thus far, will be no exception. The electronics probably won't be quite as compact and efficient as those in the F-35, but by the reports thus far, they are designed to work in broadly the same way.

That said, RWR is of fairly dubious value for long-range targeting, at least against airborne targets.
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knowan

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Unread post24 Jan 2019, 14:20

milosh wrote:
zero-one wrote:This may sound stupid for a lot of people but does the Su-57 have RWR?
I went through the avionics of the Su-57 (granted it was only Wikipedia) but I couldn't find it.
The Himalayas system is ECM? can it perform RWR? If not, then that means that the only long range detection method of the Su-57 is via Active radar


https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.word ... fa-russia/

Himalayas [RWR] – ESM


Given Russian electronics inferiority, it is unlikely the Himalayas is a very good ESM either; it is likely equivalent to Western 1990s systems at best, but probably more similar to 1980s systems.
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milosh

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Unread post24 Jan 2019, 18:31

knowan wrote:
milosh wrote:
zero-one wrote:This may sound stupid for a lot of people but does the Su-57 have RWR?
I went through the avionics of the Su-57 (granted it was only Wikipedia) but I couldn't find it.
The Himalayas system is ECM? can it perform RWR? If not, then that means that the only long range detection method of the Su-57 is via Active radar


https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.word ... fa-russia/

Himalayas [RWR] – ESM


Given Russian electronics inferiority, it is unlikely the Himalayas is a very good ESM either; it is likely equivalent to Western 1990s systems at best, but probably more similar to 1980s systems.


2000s if you look antenna technology (AESA to be precise). I don't know any western ESM which use AESA antennas in 1990s, maybe I am wrong.
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knowan

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Unread post24 Jan 2019, 19:56

milosh wrote:2000s if you look antenna technology (AESA to be precise). I don't know any western ESM which use AESA antennas in 1990s, maybe I am wrong.


The sensitivity of the antenna is more important than being AESA or not, as is the other components. It uses an Elbrus processor for example.

I freely admit to having little knowledge of these topics, but to the best of my understanding, Russia is still decades behind the West in related eletronics fields.
I also admit I probably exaggerated the relative technology of Himalayas by a few decades; access to Western technology has allowed the Russian technology base to catch up a fair bit since the end of the Cold War, just not completely.
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Unread post25 Jan 2019, 18:24

knowan wrote:
milosh wrote:
zero-one wrote:This may sound stupid for a lot of people but does the Su-57 have RWR?
I went through the avionics of the Su-57 (granted it was only Wikipedia) but I couldn't find it.
The Himalayas system is ECM? can it perform RWR? If not, then that means that the only long range detection method of the Su-57 is via Active radar


https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.word ... fa-russia/

Himalayas [RWR] – ESM


Given Russian electronics inferiority, it is unlikely the Himalayas is a very good ESM either; it is likely equivalent to Western 1990s systems at best, but probably more similar to 1980s systems.


How do you reconcile a 5th gen airframe (with supercruise), some stealth, new longer range weapons and... avionics from the late 80's/early 90's??

Would it not hurt it where a 5th gen really is a 5th gen..... in the avionics/SA department??
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post25 Jan 2019, 19:17

mixelflick wrote:
How do you reconcile a 5th gen airframe (with supercruise), some stealth, new longer range weapons and... avionics from the late 80's/early 90's??

Would it not hurt it where a 5th gen really is a 5th gen..... in the avionics/SA department??

That's the rub, isn't it? So far every metric we have seen on the new Russian AESA radars indicates they are as capable as US 1990s MSA radars. Others on the boards have gone through great lengths to discuss how things like SAR range/resolution is a great indicator of overall radar capability. Now, the Su-57 still has multiple spectrums covered by the sensors. It may have a form of data fusion. It probably has a network datalink (since the MiG-31 has this even back in the 80s). These other things mean it still fulfills many of the 5th gen criteria, just not very well. However by that metric alone (systems) the Rafale is as much of a 5th gen. The Rafale has a reduced basic signature. The Rafale has some supercruise ability. The Rafale lacks proper total signature management in that its RCS when loaded for combat will still be in the 0-10dB range. The Su-57 is expected to be in the -10-0dB range according to the Russians. This order of magnitude reduction is huge for radar detection ranges (~40% reduction). When looking at something like the Typhoon, Rafale, and Su-57 it becomes a little blurry on where 4th gen truely ends and where 5th gen begins. The U.S. set the bar absurdly high on the kinematics and signature management front with the F-22, and then again with multispectral fusion and networking on the F-35. Maybe the question comes down to "Can you without a doubt win the SA battle 99.99% of the time against an F-15?" or "Can you prosecute an F-15 with impunity?".
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knowan

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Unread post25 Jan 2019, 21:01

mixelflick wrote:How do you reconcile a 5th gen airframe (with supercruise), some stealth, new longer range weapons and... avionics from the late 80's/early 90's??

Would it not hurt it where a 5th gen really is a 5th gen..... in the avionics/SA department??


Well, I admit I exaggerated; they probably are now equivalent to Western 2000s electronics, at least with their cutting edge stuff that may or may not be ready for service.


But as for where I'm coming from, it is because the Soviets were weak when it came to semiconductor industry, and Russia has inherited that weakness.
The Soviets were capable of producing powerful radars and other electronics, it came at the expense of mass and volume. When mass and volume was comparable, Western radar was far more powerful; see the 0.9 meter diameter APG-71 having at least twice the detection range of the 1.1 meter diameter N001 radar.

Post-Soviet Russia has better access to Western electronics, they also lost a decade of development time and are definitely still far behind.
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Unread post14 Feb 2019, 21:55

I found this graphic on two Russian websites.

Image

https://cont.ws/@andrejknyazev/275684

https://pikabu.ru/story/su57__panatseya ... ey_5892243

When i got this right, you can see on the bottom right of the picture the RCS from the Su-30 and Su-57. So that would also confirm, that the Su-57 has a RCS of 0.5m2
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popcorn

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Unread post14 Feb 2019, 22:04

swiss wrote:I found this graphic on two Russian websites.

Image

https://cont.ws/@andrejknyazev/275684

https://pikabu.ru/story/su57__panatseya ... ey_5892243

When i got this right, you can see on the bottom right of the picture the RCS from the Su-30 and Su-57. So that would also confirm, that the Su-57 has a RCS of 0.5m2

In their dreams maybe. Wasn't there speculation in The Russian press that the US 5gens had a 0.5m RCS? They never explained how they knew. Lol
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
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Unread post15 Feb 2019, 00:02

Yeah, it was 0.5 m2 RCS "average" which is supposedly a similar "average" to the F-22.
How they performed that "averaging" was not explained. I can think of at least 3594043 ways to "average" such a value out.
Statistics can take a lot of abuse if needed.
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