F-35 operators start switching to AIM-9X Block II+

ASRAAM is now part of the UK CAMM family of missiles, probably zero chance it will be dropped for any other IR missile and has been refurbished for F-35.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAMM_(missile_family)

The CAMM (Common Anti-Air Modular Missile) series is a family of surface-to-air missiles developed by MBDA for the United Kingdom. CAMM shares some common features and components with the ASRAAM air-to-air missile, but with updated electronics and an active radar homing seeker. The Common Anti-Air Modular Missile is intended to replace the Sea Wolf missile on Type 23 frigates of the Royal Navy from 2017, the Rapier missile in British Army service from 2018 and is contributing to the updating of MBDA’s ASRAAM in service with the Royal Air Force.

So, my understanding is that the RAAF uses ASSRAM on its FA18's??

Seems to be moving to the AIM9X after the purchase of FA18 f /g though.

i would guess from what i have read thats because the ASSRAM being a good missile for long range or over the shoulder LOAL IR shots, AIM9X is more versatile overall ( actually has an air/surface capability of sorts?? )and being a US product iit probably has a longer development life ahead of it.

With Brexit will the UK have and dosh for missile development??

That said i could see the RAAF keeping ASSRAM in the arsenal as its cleared for external carriage on the F35.

How reasonable would it be for a country with earlier model AIM9X to upgrade their rounds to the latest spec??

The more I think about the F-35 and the 9x, the more a quantum leap in capability it becomes..

So in the future it'll carry 4-6 AMRAAM's, as we know the 6 AMRAAM loadout is being accelerated. Adding 2 9x's (especially the LOAL capability and when slaved to the F-35's sensors) is going to give it additional BVR capabilites, and bring some much needed mixed seekers to the fight.

I do forsee a time when the F-35 will be WVR of an opponent. This may be due to ROE's (especially foreign air arms not familiar or comfortable with the sensor technology) and it's going to make the F-35 perhaps THE most dangerous WVR machine ever. The speed at which the F-35 can ID enemies vs. friendlies during a fight is blinding. In looking at Gulf War dogfights, F-15 pilots on numerous occasions waited until they could visually ID Mig-25's/29's given they look similar to F-15's.

In a furball that ID sequence is going to rapidly unfold in the Panther's favor. And when you add up its post stall/nose pointing authority plus the 9x's ability to hit things at 90 degree angles... it's game over for the bad guys.

Of course, we hope it never gets to WVR, but it's good to know the 9x will be on the menu if it does..

'mixelflick' said: "...I do forsee a time when the F-35 will be WVR of an opponent. This may be due to ROE's (especially foreign air arms not familiar or comfortable with the sensor technology) and it's going to make the F-35 perhaps THE most dangerous WVR machine ever. The speed at which the F-35 can ID enemies vs. friendlies during a fight is blinding...."

And so the dogfights begin again. Get over it. The F-35 has 650 ways to ID a bogey whilst the F-35 operators have plenty of confidence & knowledge of this system, which they can tailor specifically for their area of operations - with others - BVR.

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=5525&p=404068&hilit=Osley#p404068 [AVM Osley RAAF: F-35 650 Parameters BVR ID quote]

Dogfight? Dogfight!?! Did someone say DOGFIGHT???

'mixelflick' said: "...I do forsee a time when the F-35 will be WVR of an opponent. This may be due to ROE's (especially foreign air arms not familiar or comfortable with the sensor technology) and it's going to make the F-35 perhaps THE most dangerous WVR machine ever. The speed at which the F-35 can ID enemies vs. friendlies during a fight is blinding...."

And so the dogfights begin again. Get over it. The F-35 has 650 ways to ID a bogey whilst the F-35 operators have plenty of confidence & knowledge of this system, which they can tailor specifically for their area of operations - with others - BVR.

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=5525&p=404068&hilit=Osley#p404068 [AVM Osley RAAF: F-35 650 Parameters BVR ID quote]

I read that and understand your point, but I'm not a fan of absolute statements.

You seem to be saying dogfights won't ever happen again. I'm saying although rare, it's still going to happen. Case in point: Dogfights of Desert Storm. The same DS where for the first time, more BVR kills were racked up vs. dogfights. Yet there was one instance where an F-15's first sparrow fell helplessly off the aircraft, its motor failing to ignite. The next sparrow missed. His 3rd and 4th missile's tracked, first one hit and 2nd flew through the fireball. By that time though, he was down to a WVR fight (at least on of those last 2 was a Sidewinder).

You can argue that the AMRAAM's PK is going to be higher in the F-35 vs other aircraft and I'd agree with you. But if the air force didn't think it was important, why did they make part of the requirements "rates like a Viper, can point its nose like a SH"? Why not eschew that altogether??

I'm just not a fan of absolute statements (i.e. dogfights are never going to happen again. Never is a long time. Let's settle on "extremely rare"..

Most of the time (hopefully) your side has the overview of the battlefield and BVR will be the future way to go.

But it is not always so clear…
When the situation or ROE require "visual identification" before engaging you are already WVR.

Heli and transport AC are relatively "easy", but for others it depends.

What does he have? Aircraft/weapon combination? Intentions?

And don't worry or let your sleep over it but missiles have the reputation of having a mind of their own.

In test, the missiles always function properly.

But you can not ask that of a missile that has been hanging on a vibrating launcher and flown though 3 tons of dust for its previous 100 hrs.

In test, the missiles always function properly.

But you can not ask that of a missile that has been hanging on a vibrating launcher and flown though 3 tons of dust for its previous 100 hrs.

Yes, yes you can.

You create requirements to cover 100 hours on a vibrating launcher and fly through 3 tons of dust, and then you design for those requirements.

IMO, the better questions are

• Have any missiles been designed to such requirements?
• Have they been subjected to and passed any operational tests (not simply "analysis") duplicating those conditions?

That's a really good point. That and missiles have been known to... miss.

This is why the Block II plus news was so exciting. Take the stock internal air to ground loadout of 2 JDAM's and 2 AMRAAM's. One falls away harmlessly, the other misses. Or just one hits, and you still have other targets to prosecute. The addition of two 9x's gives you options. Hopefully, it's good enough for two additional BVR shots, and we know from data Sidewinders are generally better in terms of PK vs. most radar guided missiles (not sure if there's data on AMRAAM though).

Or, you can just run. In which case I'd rather be running with 2 9x's, vs. being naked...

“You create requirements to cover 100 hours on a vibrating launcher and fly through 3 tons of dust, and then you design for those requirements.”

Shack.

“Have any missiles been designed to such requirements?”

Yep.

“Have they been subjected to and passed any operational tests (not simply "analysis") duplicating those conditions?”

Yep.

Link below to an example of what is just a fraction of the kind of testing that goes on in weapons development before something ever goes on a jet. In addition, each sub-component of a weapon has to complete component qualification testing consistent w DoD 5000 series instructions. It is very very comprehensive stuff.

https://www.baesystems.com/en/article/t ... s-complete

Here’s an old NASA instruction from 1970; qual testing has only become more complex and comprehensive since then. It’s part of why things that fly dont crash as often as they once did.

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi ... 019569.pdf

That's one thing Americans do VERY well - thoroughly check out/test their weapons in very challenging scenarios. Post Vietnam, anyway.

When you hear a Super Hornet can carry every weapon in the Navy inventory, you know they've tested it 8 ways to Sunday. Whether or not the aircrew is proficient in using the weapon is another matter. But generally speaking, if something like the 9x has been cleared on the F-22, it's been cleared through the entire envelope. No small feat, considering the Raptor's capabilities...

'mixelflick' said: "...I do forsee a time when the F-35 will be WVR of an opponent. This may be due to ROE's (especially foreign air arms not familiar or comfortable with the sensor technology) and it's going to make the F-35 perhaps THE most dangerous WVR machine ever. The speed at which the F-35 can ID enemies vs. friendlies during a fight is blinding...."

And so the dogfights begin again. Get over it. The F-35 has 650 ways to ID a bogey whilst the F-35 operators have plenty of confidence & knowledge of this system, which they can tailor specifically for their area of operations - with others - BVR.

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=5525&p=404068&hilit=Osley#p404068 [AVM Osley RAAF: F-35 650 Parameters BVR ID quote]

I read that and understand your point, but I'm not a fan of absolute statements.

You seem to be saying dogfights won't ever happen again. I'm saying although rare, it's still going to happen. Case in point: Dogfights of Desert Storm. The same DS where for the first time, more BVR kills were racked up vs. dogfights. Yet there was one instance where an F-15's first sparrow fell helplessly off the aircraft, its motor failing to ignite. The next sparrow missed. His 3rd and 4th missile's tracked, first one hit and 2nd flew through the fireball. By that time though, he was down to a WVR fight (at least on of those last 2 was a Sidewinder).

You can argue that the AMRAAM's PK is going to be higher in the F-35 vs other aircraft and I'd agree with you. But if the air force didn't think it was important, why did they make part of the requirements "rates like a Viper, can point its nose like a SH"? Why not eschew that altogether??

I'm just not a fan of absolute statements (i.e. dogfights are never going to happen again. Never is a long time. Let's settle on "extremely rare"..

I agree with all you said. WVR SHOULD be rare, BVR is the future, however....why does the Raptor have a gun? better to have and not need...yadda, yadda, yadda.

https://twitter.com/MIL_STD/status/1153 ... 92962?s=20

40% greater range from new rocket grain. Perhaps the same grain for the Aim-260 motor?
The Aim-9x is known to have a max range of about 15miles. Adding 40% makes it 21miles. This makes it a pretty decent BVR mssile, especially with its passive seeker giving the adversary no warning and datalink to increase the Pk.

[quote="marsavian"]ASRAAM is now part of the UK CAMM family of missiles, probably zero chance it will be dropped for any other IR missile and has been refurbished for F-35.

The UK's F-35 are cleared for legacy Asraam at present.

But Asraam is due to be replaced by Asraam CSP. The UK MoD had a choice of re-lifing the existing Asraam stockpile but realised that it would cost the same to buy wholly new missiles with a new seeker and technology inserts from the CAMM programme.

Asraam CSP gets integrated to F-35 at the same time as Meteor, so c2024. Asraam already has by far the highest range and average speed of any WVR missile (although in reality Asraam is a BVR as we know it has a range of greater than 60km) and a 2 way datalink, with an even better seeker its fair to say it will remain the best IR missile out there for the foreseeable future.

The Australian's are big fans of Asraam so it will be interesting to see what they do. They paid for it to be integrated to F-18 as they weren't happy with Sidewinder 9M's or the early versions of 9X and IRIS-T. It appears the main reason for the 9X purchase is to provide an IR missile for their Super Hornet fleet (it wasn't worth integrating Asraam with the Super Hornet given the small numbers that they're procuring). Given the numbers of 9X they're procuring it doesn't look as yet that they've made a long term decision. Their Asraam are newer than the UK's so don't need a re-life yet, they may be waiting for the UK to integrate Asraam CSP with F-35 before they make a move.

So, my understanding is that the RAAF uses ASSRAM on its FA18's??

Seems to be moving to the AIM9X after the purchase of FA18 f /g though.

i would guess from what i have read thats because the ASSRAM being a good missile for long range or over the shoulder LOAL IR shots, AIM9X is more versatile overall ( actually has an air/surface capability of sorts?? )and being a US product iit probably has a longer development life ahead of it.

With Brexit will the UK have and dosh for missile development??

That said i could see the RAAF keeping ASSRAM in the arsenal as its cleared for external carriage on the F35.

How reasonable would it be for a country with earlier model AIM9X to upgrade their rounds to the latest spec??

Yes the RAAF uses Asraam on its legacy Hornet. They're buying 9X for the Super Hornet as its not worth paying for integration for a small fleet.

Asraam is being replaced in UK service by Asraam CSP. Development is paid for and almost completed as part of the CAMM programme. The RAAF will need to re-life their Asraam in the future, what they decide to do is unknown at present. Asraam CSP will be more expensive, but its likely to have close to double the range of 9X with better speed and a superior seeker (9X and legacy Asraam use the same seeker, but Asraam CSP is getting a new one).