Q&A session with an F-35C naval aviator

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

zero-one

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1967
  • Joined: 23 Jul 2013, 16:19
  • Location: New Jersey

Unread post19 Dec 2018, 08:51

:thanks: :thanks: :thanks: :thanks: :thanks:
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 22461
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post19 Dec 2018, 09:27

zero-one wrote:"...Is it the pilot interface? Recently the decision not to include touch screens in the F-16V was made because having touch screens in a dynamic maneuvering environment can be dangerous....

I'm not following the F-16 or variants thereof (out dated trash :roll: :P ) however said change to F-16V MAY NOT HAVE all the goodies extant in the F-35 cockpit. The PVI Pilot Vehicle Interface is a 'genius design' by all accounts, driven by many interfaces - not just touch. The cowpie throttle and stick have a lot of buttons with voice commands for the pilot to get what he needs without looking at the PCD or touching it. There is a lot of info on this forum about this aspect + vHUD etc.
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
Offline
User avatar

sferrin

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 5061
  • Joined: 22 Jul 2005, 03:23

Unread post19 Dec 2018, 13:12

knowan wrote:There's also the misconception that a plane not built primarily as a dogfighter, can't dogfight.


Yep. The F-16 was designed to be a multirole aircraft, not a "not a pound for air to ground" aircraft like the F-15, and it certainly doesn't want for dogfight abilities.
"There I was. . ."
Offline

f-16adf

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 608
  • Joined: 19 Dec 2016, 17:46

Unread post19 Dec 2018, 15:48

It shouldn't come as a shock to the system that not every ex F-16 and F-18 guy if when asked would rather BFM or hot dog around in their old mount or the F-35, doesn't pick the F-35. No new revelation here......

The more important question is: Which jet would you rather go to war in. And I bet the overwhelming majority if not ALL will pick the -35.
Offline

zero-one

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1967
  • Joined: 23 Jul 2013, 16:19
  • Location: New Jersey

Unread post19 Dec 2018, 16:37

Actually, most pilots prefer to dogfight in the F-35

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... hink-31012
1. Even with developmental restrictions that limit the F-35A’s responsiveness and ability to maneuver, every U.S. fighter pilot interviewed would pick the F-35A over his former jet in a majority of air-to-air (dogfight) engagement scenarios they could face.


https://www.heritage.org/defense/report ... concurrent
Pilots selected the F-35A 100 percent of the time in beyond-visual-range situations and over 80 percent of dogfighting situations where energy and maneuverability are critical to success.


This navy pilot must be one of the few who didn't like the F-35's dog fighting performance
Offline

f-16adf

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 608
  • Joined: 19 Dec 2016, 17:46

Unread post19 Dec 2018, 16:55

Yes, most do pick it. But not all.

This Hornet guy is one example. I do not think he is saying the F-35C is bad at dog-fighting. He just said that "The most fun I would say is the Legacy Hornet. Just a blue collar working man’s jet, super snappy, super agile, she'll do anything you ask of her!"

I've had a F-16 pilot tell me near the same.



I seriously do not understand the mental gymnastics that goes on here concerning the F-35 and its dog-fight ability. All we have to go by is what the pilots have to say, or watching its air demos. All other material (actual EM charts, not flight modeled) is classified; and will remain so for the next 30+ years.



The F-35 is just fine in the air; and it will only get better. Is it the best 3-9 BFM jet out there, No. Is it the hapless slug (i.e. F-105 type can't turn.......)that people like Sprey made it out to be, ABSOLUTELY NOT.
Offline
User avatar

Dragon029

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1300
  • Joined: 22 Dec 2014, 07:13

Unread post19 Dec 2018, 16:57

zero-one wrote:Okay, well this is quite confusing. '

There was an episode by Lockheed Martin on Youtube called "Test pilot Tuesdays" Where a test pilot was asked random questions.

Just re-read the top of my post; I explained where this all came from there.

zero-one wrote:He said there were 2 that he comes across most of the time and number 1 is the turning capability. People think it can't turn but in reality it turns very well.

1. No one has ever had the misconception that the F-35 is built as a dog fighter. If anything, all the pro F-35 crowd has ever said was that It can dogfight if it needs to.


The pro F-35 crowd may have been saying that it can dogfight if it needs to, but a lot of laymen (which make up the majority of F-35 commentators) don't understand what BVR combat is, and think that you need to be able to dogfight like they do in the movies.

To them, the F-35 is a fighter, therefore it is designed to dogfight right?

The F-35 may be built to be able to dogfight, but it's not "built to be a dogfighter." If the F-35 was built to be a dogfighter, it would have been given thrust vectoring, a built-in 20mm, less weight at whatever expense, etc.

The F-35C today is decent at turning, but it lags behind in areas such as thrust-to-weight (for example, with its current engine it doesn't get a 1.0 T:W ratio until it's down to 36% fuel).

f-16adf wrote:I seriously do not understand the mental gymnastics that goes on here concerning the F-35 and its dog-fight ability.


I have to agree. The jet's far more agile than (eg) Pierre Sprey would describe it, but it wasn't meant to try and keep up with something like a Su-35 in a turning fight, not any more than is necessary for a skilled pilot to get his chance, or to facilitate a high pK AIM-9X launch.

Also, if anyone here is debating about the pilot's view of the jet, but hasn't read all 60 questions and answers, I'd suggest you do that first before replying:

The two jets are apples and oranges. To just fly around and rage, F/A-18. To go downtown, F-35. Just my personal opinion. Both are a ton of fun to fly and very capable.

I find the F-35 to be a great jet. It's super high tech. It's like flying a Tesla. It is a very well handling plane. It is as easy to fly as a Hornet (which itself is very easy to fly).

The F-35C is the future. The Hornet is old. It needs to go. There’s a reason we don't fly the F-4 and A-6 anymore...technology advances and requirements change.

it can go into contested environments. That is no-kidding true. Combine that with the F-35C that has a ton of gas and minimal drag... it can be used on a contested strike where other jets can’t go.

The engine response time in the Hornet is not bad. The Super Hornet has the addition of FADECs which makes things even smoother. F-35 also has FADECs. Very good response times.
Offline

zero-one

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1967
  • Joined: 23 Jul 2013, 16:19
  • Location: New Jersey

Unread post19 Dec 2018, 17:20

I have reservations.
I'm almost certain he may have said "wasn't" instead of "was"

I don't know, to me it just makes more sense.
Nobody ever labeled the F-35 as being built as a dog fighter, to this day the number of civilians who believe that the F-35 can at least hold its own in a dogfight remains very small.

So why would he say that it is the Biggest misconception about the F-35?

I get what you're saying, the F-35 was never built specifically for dogfighting, but so was the F-15, F-16, F-22 and Typhoon.
yet I have never heard or read a pilot say that the F-22 was not built as a dogfighter.

It's like saying, the F-15 is not built specifically to go supersonic.
Offline
User avatar

steve2267

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2079
  • Joined: 12 Jun 2016, 17:36

Unread post19 Dec 2018, 17:52

Zero, what is it with you and dogfighting? Whenever someone mentions, or you somehow interpret what someone knowledgeable about the F-35 said, even hints that the F-35 is not el supremo at dogfighting, you seem to pop rivets. Give it a rest and join everyone else in the 5th generation.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 22461
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post19 Dec 2018, 18:12

:shock: :roll: :doh: Despairingly I reckon (like the meme that says 'when HITLER is brung up then the internet conversation is over' I reckon that when the 'F-35 dogfighting is bringed up then that forum conversation is FINISHED! :devil: :bang: 8)
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
Offline
User avatar

sferrin

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 5061
  • Joined: 22 Jul 2005, 03:23

Unread post19 Dec 2018, 19:56

f-16adf wrote:Yes, most do pick it. But not all.

This Hornet guy is one example. I do not think he is saying the F-35C is bad at dog-fighting. He just said that "The most fun I would say is the Legacy Hornet. Just a blue collar working man’s jet, super snappy, super agile, she'll do anything you ask of her!"

I've had a F-16 pilot tell me near the same.


I wonder how much "fun" they'd have against F-35s in Red Flag.
"There I was. . ."
Offline

sprstdlyscottsmn

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3964
  • Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 01:24
  • Location: Phoenix, Az

Unread post19 Dec 2018, 20:06

Even this guy said Hornet to just fly around, Lightning to go downtown.
"Spurts"

-Pilot
-Aerospace Engineer
-Army Medic
-FMS Systems Engineer
Offline
User avatar

steve2267

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2079
  • Joined: 12 Jun 2016, 17:36

Unread post19 Dec 2018, 20:20

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Even this guy said Hornet to just fly around, Lightning to go downtown.


When former Bug drivers are quoted exclaiming, “It’s like a Hornet with FOUR motors” or “It’s like a Hornet with a TURBO!”, it makes me wonder why the Reddit pilot, or any Bug or Rhino driver would pick the old plane for tooling around in. Maybe it’s a familiarity or first love thing. Maybe the Hornet cockpit is more comfortable (easier in which to pee, anyway.). Or perhaps flight control “feel.” A number of pilots have remarked about how great ergonomics are in the Hornet... so maybe the pilot interface is a little more “natural.” But none of these areas have been noted as “peeves” by Lightning drivers, not that I recall anyway.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 22461
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post19 Dec 2018, 20:47

Perhaps our esteemed F-35C pilot on REDDIT does not have enough hours on the aircraft to be as comfortable as he may become when he has a similar number of hours compared to whatever other aircraft he has flown? Think o'nt. Several test & operational F-35 pilots have been quoted saying after 'fifty (or X number) hours they were OK with the vHUD, HMDS, Flight Contols or whatever bugged them during the change over. But someone said 'dogfighting' so I'm OVER and OUT. :mrgreen:
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
Offline

f-16adf

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 608
  • Joined: 19 Dec 2016, 17:46

Unread post19 Dec 2018, 23:48

So what if the pilot said he would rather hot dog or have fun in the F-18 more? The point is, he said he would rather take the F-35 to war vs legacy Hornet. That is what matters the most.

As he said, the Hornet is old (like the F-16,F-15,A-10). These jets have been in near constant action since August 1990. Their time has passed.



If I was a pilot in Vietnam circa 1965, I probably would pick the F-104 as the ultimate fun to fly or rage in jet. Yet, I would not want to go to SEA in one. I'd pick the Phantom for that.
PreviousNext

Return to General F-35 Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 19 guests