Top BVR fighters

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

garrya

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 824
  • Joined: 25 Dec 2015, 12:43

Unread post26 Nov 2018, 11:00

zero-one wrote:This was a Naval introduction to the fundamentals of Basic fighter maneuvers.
some of the rules here are not what they use in high end air combat simulations to train seasoned veterans.
fulcrumflyer once said that their job as adversaries is to replicate threat capabilities as closely as possible.
So using Flanker tactics equipped with R-73s and HMCS is certainly part of that

FoV of R-73 is very limited compared to Western missiles
Image
The main point of BFM is to train pilots in dogfight combat with gun
https://www.heritage.org/defense/report ... concurrent
zero-one wrote:But then how does the F-22 and F-35 get so many lop sided WVR kills even when adversaries are equipped with these IIR and 9x simulated rounds with HMCS.

If F-22/F-35 can remain invisible to F-16, F-15's radar then they can flank them (going around, and approach from behind)
Offline

zero-one

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2177
  • Joined: 23 Jul 2013, 16:19
  • Location: New Jersey

Unread post26 Nov 2018, 12:34

garrya wrote:FoV of R-73 is very limited compared to Western missiles

true, but my point was simply to say that simulating HOBS WVR is not unheard off and may actually be a regular occurrence.

I'd like to add that not all training HOPS need to have one fighter simulating an adversary aircraft. I know someone who flew Eagles and he would tell stories of how they would have hold no bars DACT fights, utilizing all the capabilities of their platform.

Anyway, thats a topic for another thread. Point is they use Aim-9X in WVR simulations against F-22s and F-35s.

garrya wrote:If F-22/F-35 can remain invisible to F-16, F-15's radar then they can flank them (going around, and approach from behind)


You may be suggesting that the only way for an F-22/35 to win WVR is to sneak up behind the FOV and avoid a being seen.
Well Steven Campbell was clear that he can "see it visually". Even if you disagree that he was using HMCS and HOBS capability, seeing it visually means it was within his field of view.

Tailgate also said, their inability to target him was key. so even if they were using radar cuing, the IR sensor of the missile itself should still be able to pick up the F-22 even if the radar can't.

I'm agreeing with your EOTS argument, EOTS is the one major advantage of the F-35 over the F-22 BVR or WVR.
DAS is also nice, specially in a WVR

But can EOTS be reliably used to detect VLO targets further than the F-22's APG-77(v1)\AN\ALR-94 combo
we may never know.

But even if it can, the F-22's altitude and speed advantages combined with VLO. Thats hard to beat.
Offline

hornetfinn

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2811
  • Joined: 13 Mar 2013, 08:31
  • Location: Finland

Unread post26 Nov 2018, 12:58

garrya wrote:
zero-one wrote:Not invisible, just very difficult.

To the point that IIR sensor can't see it at close range? i don't buy that.


I don't either. IIR sensors can detect extremely small differences in temperature and any jet aircraft will be seen by them at WVR ranges pretty easily. IMO, F-22 and F-35 thermal signature will likely shorten the detection range significantly but I doubt that matters much in WVR ranges. IIR systems can pretty easily detect and track small drones and similar targets with very low thermal signature. I doubt F-22 or F-35 can hide from them at short ranges.

I think the problem in getting F-22 or F-35 is that they have so good SA and networking that getting them in disadvantageous position is difficult. Add to that F-22 and even F-35 have great maneuverability and performance which helps them in all aspects of combat.
Offline

garrya

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 824
  • Joined: 25 Dec 2015, 12:43

Unread post27 Nov 2018, 04:02

zero-one wrote: my point was simply to say that simulating HOBS WVR is not unheard off and may actually be a regular occurrence.
I'd like to add that not all training HOPS need to have one fighter simulating an adversary aircraft. I know someone who flew Eagles and he would tell stories of how they would have hold no bars DACT fights, utilizing all the capabilities of their platform.
Anyway, thats a topic for another thread. Point is they use Aim-9X in WVR simulations against F-22s and F-35s.

Iam not saying that BFM combat never use HOBS missiles, iam saying that generally BFM exercise is used to train pilot in cannon/ limited boresight missile combat.
There probably no hold bars exercise, but then, in that case, F-22, F-35 likely use their stealth characteristic as well


zero-one wrote:You may be suggesting that the only way for an F-22/35 to win WVR is to sneak up behind the FOV and avoid a being seen.
Well Steven Campbell was clear that he can "see it visually". Even if you disagree that he was using HMCS and HOBS capability, seeing it visually means it was within his field of view.

Tailgate also said, their inability to target him was key. so even if they were using radar cuing, the IR sensor of the missile itself should still be able to pick up the F-22 even if the radar can't.

an adversary could be inside your FoV , yet still outside the FoV of your aircraft radar and missile seeker. Just like the example i gave earlier, if F-22 fly behind you, then you can turn your head and see it through the canopy, yet the radar and missile's seeker can't reach that (unless you have DAS or anything similar)
Image
zero-one wrote:But can EOTS be reliably used to detect VLO targets further than the F-22's APG-77(v1)\AN\ALR-94 combo
we may never know. But even if it can, the F-22's altitude and speed advantages combined with VLO. Thats hard to beat.

AN/ALR-94 is an ESM, so like all RWR as long as enemy don't transmit, it is pointless.
We can assume EOTS can track F-22 from 30 km (put it in the same level as OLS-35)
F-35 RCS is 0.001 m2 ( In fact, according to general Hostage, F-35 is more stealthy than F-22, which will put its RCS < 0.0001 m2)
We got this ratio
jamming-burn-throgh311.png

Range burn-through square is proportional to RCS.
For F-22 to attack F-35 first, APG-77 must be able to track F-35 from distance > 30 km in jamming condition, does that sound plausible? You may say yes but only because you didn't think much about the equation i gave earlier.
If you put a Flanker in the equation along with F-35, we got:
RCS of Flanker: 10 m2
RCS of F-35: 0.001 m2
Range burn through against F-35: 30 km
Range burn through against Flanker: X km

So: 10/0.001 = X^2 /30^2
10.000 =X^2 / 900
X^2 = 9000.000
X = 3000 km

If APG-77 can track F-35 from distance > 30 km in jamming condition, it will be able to track a Flanker from distance
> 3000 km in the same condition. Do you believe APG-77 can do that?
Offline

charlielima223

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1042
  • Joined: 12 Jan 2014, 19:26

Unread post27 Nov 2018, 05:36

Isn't there some kind of F-22 vs F-35 thread somewhere here? Why don't you guys (Garrya and Zero-One) just take it over there and resurrect it or just start a new one. There was a reason why I put up a gif of a guy jumping into a deep dark hole... because I knew this would happen.

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=9909
Offline
User avatar

marsavian

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1258
  • Joined: 02 Feb 2018, 21:55

Unread post27 Nov 2018, 06:02

Garrya, your example clearly shows how with the aid of AESA self-jamming the F-22 can become untrackable even well WVR by other fighter radars as its detection range maybe as low as 1 nm under these conditions. It's also pretty fortunate that the best RCS claimed for J-20 and Su-57 are only 0.05 and 0.1 sq m respectively because even with self-jamming they could still be tracked at BVR in deep AMRAAM territory. Too little, too late. Also no doubt the F-35 has the best all round BVR attributes to defeat other fighters at range, with its RCS/AESA/EOTS a very deadly combination along with its 360 deg RWR/DAS full SA.
Offline

zero-one

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2177
  • Joined: 23 Jul 2013, 16:19
  • Location: New Jersey

Unread post27 Nov 2018, 08:49

garrya wrote:an adversary could be inside your FoV , yet still outside the FoV of your aircraft radar and missile seeker. Just like the example i gave earlier, if F-22 fly behind you, then you can turn your head and see it through the canopy, yet the radar and missile's seeker can't reach that (unless you have DAS or anything similar)


This is very unlikely. If the F-22 was simply outside of the weapons envelope then Maj. Campbell would have no reason to be upset. Furthermore, it would apply to every single object, not just the F-22.

To me, Tailgate and Maj. Campbell was clear. Even in WVR, where IR weapons are the primary means of engaging, the F-22's VLO still prove potent.
Offline

garrya

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 824
  • Joined: 25 Dec 2015, 12:43

Unread post27 Nov 2018, 08:57

hornetfinn wrote:I don't either. IIR sensors can detect extremely small differences in temperature and any jet aircraft will be seen by them at WVR ranges pretty easily. IMO, F-22 and F-35 thermal signature will likely shorten the detection range significantly but I doubt that matters much in WVR ranges. IIR systems can pretty easily detect and track small drones and similar targets with very low thermal signature. I doubt F-22 or F-35 can hide from them at short ranges.

Exactly, i can't imagine a scenario where F-22 would be invisible to IR sensor at close combat, unless there is something physically obstruct the aircraft and the sensor

zero-one wrote:This is very unlikely. If the F-22 was simply outside of the weapons envelope then Maj. Campbell would have no reason to be upset. Furthermore, it would apply to every single object, not just the F-22

The problem is F-22 can get there thanks to its VLO while other aircraft may not be able to do that.
You can't target a C-5 Galaxy in your 6 either, but what is the chance of C-5 getting in your 6 compared to F-22

zero-one wrote: To me, Tailgate and Maj. Campbell was clear. Even in WVR, where IR weapons are the primary means of engaging, the F-22's VLO still prove potent.

Then how can you explain the infrared video of F-22 where it clearly seen?

marsavian wrote:Garrya, your example clearly shows how with the aid of AESA self-jamming the F-22 can become untrackable even well WVR by other fighter radars as its detection range maybe as low as 1 nm under these conditions.

Yes, that why i think against combat with others stealth aircraft, radar isn't very useful
Offline

hornetfinn

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2811
  • Joined: 13 Mar 2013, 08:31
  • Location: Finland

Unread post27 Nov 2018, 09:45

garrya wrote:We can assume EOTS can track F-22 from 30 km (put it in the same level as OLS-35)


I'm sure EOTS outranges OLS-35 very significantly in all conditions. Best Russian thermal detectors are significantly less capable than average Western detectors. They have used French Thales Catherine-FC (which is pretty average) detectors in their tanks as they have lacked the capabilties to manufacture comparable systems themselves. Catherine-FC itself has half the range of EOTS at best. Russia has shown some indigenous systems which all have had significantly lower performance specs than Catherine-FC.

I'd be really surprised if EOTS didn't have several times the effective range of OLS-35. I always laugh when people claim that F-35 will be defeated by enemy IRST systems when it always carries by far the best IRST system in any fighter jet. Not to mention other sensors and sensor fusion especially... :devil:
Offline

Corsair1963

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 5690
  • Joined: 19 Dec 2005, 04:14

Unread post27 Nov 2018, 09:57

When was the last kill of an opposing fighter shot down with the aid of a IRST System??? :wink:
Offline

zero-one

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2177
  • Joined: 23 Jul 2013, 16:19
  • Location: New Jersey

Unread post27 Nov 2018, 10:20

garrya wrote:The problem is F-22 can get there thanks to its VLO while other aircraft may not be able to do that.


If that was the case then he would have said something in the effect of, "by the time we saw it, it was too late" or "we couldn't manuver hard enough to get it into weapons parameters" something like that

garrya wrote:Then how can you explain the infrared video of F-22 where it clearly seen?

Well for one, we know the F-35 circulates fuel to reduce it's IR signature, what if the Raptor has that system too or a similar system, maybe even a more effective one.

For some reason the F-22 seems to have a higher level of confidentiality than the F-35 (classified top speed, classified service ceiling, export ban etc.)

So, what if it uses a different system to drastically reduce its IR signature somehow. And this is deliberately turned off in demos. The F-35, being an export model is turned on, which is why IR videos of the F-35 show a very low IR signature.
Theres no reason to keep it a secret and it makes it more attractive for potential buyers.

The F-22 also uses AB extensively on those demo videos,

Another theory I have is.
Just because you can see the F-22 in an IR video, that doesn't mean the missile can see it too.
We know missiles are programmed to lock on some types of IR signatures and ignore others (like the sun or flares)
The F-22 may look like a flare for these missiles.
Offline

hkultala

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

  • Posts: 32
  • Joined: 11 Sep 2018, 08:02

Unread post27 Nov 2018, 11:40

garrya wrote:
zero-one wrote: To me, Tailgate and Maj. Campbell was clear. Even in WVR, where IR weapons are the primary means of engaging, the F-22's VLO still prove potent.

Then how can you explain the infrared video of F-22 where it clearly seen?


what infrared video?
Offline

tailgate

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 139
  • Joined: 19 Aug 2017, 02:46

Unread post27 Nov 2018, 19:16

Greets !

Hope everybody had a safe and wonderful holiday with family and friends......

Good reading going on here. There are some good and bad things about “IR” systems and they are well known, and you guys can read up on those multiple places. I think the tech has greatly improved since the days of the “ gunfighter” and the “ one-oh wonder”....lol.

Both the IRST and HOBS were developed for I guess that toolbox that pilots carry. Just one more to help win the day...

I will say this......when it comes down to WVR, and you’ve gotten to that point.....things are gonna start happening very quickly. Most WVR fights are very short and quick. One reason we developed HOBS systems was to try and get advantage on today’s “ maneuvering “ jets in the close up game. In my days in the Raptor at least, I tried to end the fight within 60 seconds, if I was lucky
First look is key. I had a “Tiffie” pilot tell me that the IRST system on his jet was great, but he still had to know where to look. He said sometimes searching out in space with the IRST was like trying to find someone looking thru a plastic straw. I found it odd that he always considered it a failure if he allowed himself to get to WVR. He said with today’s systems and platforms, even older 4 th gens, it was inherently dangerous......lol

I was not present when the notorious showdown happened between that one Raptor and Eagles happened. I was told it was 1 vs 6, but I cannot confirm this. Talk around the table ( by quite a few who were there) said that pilot bagged all 6 in something 2 minutes......again, I never saw anything to confirm those numbers. But something happened, but soon after that happened our roe’s were changed so the advantage we had was severely degraded against “ lesser” opponents. I think I remember the word demoralizing being used........

Just my thoughts.
Offline
User avatar

botsing

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 851
  • Joined: 05 Dec 2015, 18:09
  • Location: The Netherlands

Unread post27 Nov 2018, 19:46

zero-one wrote: For some reason the F-22 seems to have a higher level of confidentiality than the F-35 (classified top speed, classified service ceiling, export ban etc.)

That can easily be explained by the F-35 being designed for export in mind, with lessons learned from the F-22.

Unfortunately, that alone makes your assumptions mute since we can all enter guessing games with a wild variety of opinions.

It's more easy to accept input from experienced people like tailgate, gums and hornetfinn who have shown over and over again that they understand their profession.
"Those who know don’t talk. Those who talk don’t know"
Offline
User avatar

marsavian

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1258
  • Joined: 02 Feb 2018, 21:55

Unread post28 Nov 2018, 02:49

tailgate wrote:First look is key. I had a “Tiffie” pilot tell me that the IRST system on his jet was great, but he still had to know where to look. He said sometimes searching out in space with the IRST was like trying to find someone looking thru a plastic straw. I found it odd that he always considered it a failure if he allowed himself to get to WVR. He said with today’s systems and platforms, even older 4 th gens, it was inherently dangerous......lol


I suppose this is where the F-35 combination of DAS/EOTS is superior to traditional IRSTs in that DAS does the automatic IR scan of the whole sky and EOTS and/or AESA can then be cued by this using sensor fusion to get quick weapons parameters. The Block 4 F-35 will be some infra-red stalker with Advanced EOTS and DAS II. Hopefully they will add LWIR too as LMT are currently suggesting.
PreviousNext

Return to Modern Military Aircraft

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: swiss and 18 guests