Tyndall AFB a "complete loss" amid questions about F-22s

Anything goes, as long as it is about the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
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weasel1962

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Unread post26 Oct 2018, 00:32

Don't tell that to the AF, they'd use that as justification for a new helo. F-22 minus engines, not that far off from max carry weight. imho flatbeds are ideal. Max loads are 45k lbs > raptor with engines, no mods required. Can apply to other combat a/c including F-35s. Just maybe need landing gear fasterners so the landing gears/wheels don't need to be removed.

There's even combat justification for flatbeds. Damaged aircraft that land at airbases w/o repair facilities can be trucked out to repair shops or ports, if overseas.
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Unread post26 Oct 2018, 00:58

The news in Pensacola said the USAF announced eight F-22A fighters left Tyndall today and all the rest will depart next week.
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Unread post26 Oct 2018, 01:55

weasel1962 wrote:Two dozen air transportable flatbed trucks are probably cheaper. Fly them in before the storm, tie down the non flyables, truck out. Probably cost less than one hanger.

I think the Raptor is to big for fast trucking, one of the maintainers said it took them two weeks to prep a F-22 to fly in a C-5 for a Depot visit.

With assets like the raptor they need a proper building to ride out that type of storm. Give them a reinforced hangor that's elevated with a inflatable barrier around for storm surge flooding protection. Don't need every hangar on the base to be that just 2 maybe 3 to give the aircraft and equipment a fighting chance when these types of storms happen. Ideally we would base the raptors inland, could prob base them all at one base and do short deployments to other bases from the main hub.
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weasel1962

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Unread post26 Oct 2018, 02:07

Agree on moving by C-5. Need to remove wings etc. Too much hassle. Was thinking more of this.

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If they can truck locomotives like below, they can truck F-22s.

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The difference is that it won't take 2 weeks because they don't need to remove the wings, engines. They just load it on a flat bed and drive off.
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weasel1962

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Unread post26 Oct 2018, 02:17

24 flat beds customised for F-22 vs CAT 5 proof buildings at every major AFB along the Hurricane coast? The senator that green-lights this acquisition just saved the US taxpayer $billions.

Watch history channel's "Mega movers".

Its a cheap enough solution that you can have 24-36 stationed at every AFB for the F-35. However, it can be even cheaper by just having 24-48 air transportable by C-5 to any location. The best part of all, if it can't be air transported e.g. runway damaged, it can still be driven to that location. Its a 40 hour trip from east to west coast?

I can build a flat bed for under $100k that hooks up to any MACK prime mover. Total cost under $3m (with a 200% profit margin). Since we can't call a hard drive, an hard drive, can call this a specialised combat operation offload trucking or SCOOT for short.
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Unread post26 Oct 2018, 12:08

weasel1962 wrote:24 flat beds customised for F-22 vs CAT 5 proof buildings at every major AFB along the Hurricane coast? The senator that green-lights this acquisition just saved the US taxpayer $billions.

Watch history channel's "Mega movers".

Its a cheap enough solution that you can have 24-36 stationed at every AFB for the F-35. However, it can be even cheaper by just having 24-48 air transportable by C-5 to any location. The best part of all, if it can't be air transported e.g. runway damaged, it can still be driven to that location. Its a 40 hour trip from east to west coast?

I can build a flat bed for under $100k that hooks up to any MACK prime mover. Total cost under $3m (with a 200% profit margin). Since we can't call a hard drive, an hard drive, can call this a specialised combat operation offload trucking or SCOOT for short.


Hell, for the longest time they just left jets out in the weather. They'd get snowed on, rained on, sit out in the sun for years at a time. You wouldn't do that to a Ferrari, why do it to a $20 million jet? :doh:
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geforcerfx

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Unread post26 Oct 2018, 15:47

F-22's wing span though, would require some major modifications to the roads nearest the base, not to mention the traffic issues you would cause during a evacuation trying to haul 10 extra wide loads down a already busy interstate. While cost is definitely a plus in your idea, practicality isn't super good. Again most logical thing would be to move all the F-22's too one base in Missouri or Indiana and have small deployments from there on a rotation. But politics will say no to that so you need the hardended hangars. This will also come in handy for the F-35 since they will be everywhere (even though they could be trucked out easier) you can fit more of those in a shelter thanks to smaller size.
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Unread post27 Oct 2018, 00:23

Thinking out of the box, Aerocraft is currently building an airship with a 60-ton payload capacity... who knows?
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Unread post27 Oct 2018, 00:34

Good points. Standard lane width is 3.7m so need 4 lanes for 14m span (3 lanes for f-35). Expanding roads may not be feasible and if so will also incur cost. Agreed. Thats where engineering comes in. If the plane can be hoisted high enough, its only the prime mover that occupies the road. Everyone else goes under. The only question is how high it needs to be to clear the street lamps and trees.

May require some road closures and route planning w police escort but its not everyday that this is required. The main thing is how to create contingency planning and triggering it.

I remember an incident where the authorities trucked a 737 to a college campus over here. Still used for training. Did it at night w police escort. probably a lot of planning went into it so agreed, its not so simple.

not worth doing for $2m ferraris but $80-150m jets?
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Unread post27 Oct 2018, 00:40

popcorn wrote:Thinking out of the box, Aerocraft is currently building an airship with a 60-ton payload capacity... who knows?


Already can send out F-22s by air. The problem as highlighted is that it will take too long to get 1 f-22 ready.
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geforcerfx

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Unread post27 Oct 2018, 02:25

weasel1962 wrote:
popcorn wrote:Thinking out of the box, Aerocraft is currently building an airship with a 60-ton payload capacity... who knows?


Already can send out F-22s by air. The problem as highlighted is that it will take too long to get 1 f-22 ready.


The benefit to airship is width the cargo bay can be considerably larger width wise over any jet. You could build a airship with a 65 foot wide cargo bay if it was required. That could honestly be a decent route, the air Force was looking at both lockheeds and aircrafts airship for austere cargo delivery about a decade ago. Having two of those would allow the air Force to move unique equipment all over the USA.
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Unread post27 Oct 2018, 04:27

Yep, assuming acceptable dimensions, just load on an unflyable F-22 and fly off... Even more flexibility if lifting a load by sling is feasible. Potentially the elegant solution.
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Unread post27 Oct 2018, 14:52

F-22 Raptor crew chiefs from the 1st Aircraft Maintenance Squadron, Langley Air Force Base, Va., work on an aircraft at Tyndall Air Force Base, Fla., Oct. 24, 2018. Approximately 40 crew chiefs and avionics specialists traveled from Langley AFB to assist flying operations at Tyndall AFB.


TY 044
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A pilot from the 27th Fighter Squadron, Joint Base Langly-Eustis, Va., flies an F-22 Raptor out of Tyndall Air Force Base, Fla., Oct. 21, 2018, following the aftermath of Hurricane Michael. Multiple major commands have mobilized relief assets in an effort to restore operations after the hurricane caused catastrophic damage to the base.


TY 036(?)
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weasel1962

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Unread post27 Oct 2018, 17:10

popcorn wrote:Yep, assuming acceptable dimensions, just load on an unflyable F-22 and fly off... Even more flexibility if lifting a load by sling is feasible. Potentially the elegant solution.


Agreed on it being a potential solution. LM had the LMH1 project that supposed to launch in Alaska next year. Intended to carry 21 tons but cargo hold dimensions are like C-130. They'd probably can fix some external load carriage. Technically feasible. The issue is deployment. The blimps are relatively slow, must be in the vicinity. Flying from Alaska to Florida may be a bit too late to meet a sudden hurricane warning. Would be more useful if it can be deflated, air crated to the base and set up.
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Unread post27 Oct 2018, 18:47

Pretty exotic and complex solutions that y'all are coming up with. Flatbed trailers with slings to get them above road signs (but below bridges)? Blimps with slings? Large new CAT5 hurricane proof hangars? All of which need to be available, along with trained personnel, for the next 50-75 years?


96 hours prior to hurricane Michael's landfall, nobody knew where it would come ashore. It was a CAT2 hurricane. It may have come ashore anywhere between Tampa and Biloxi. Using your complex proposals, you would have had to decide days in advance whether or not to evacuate, which bases to evacuate, close roads that were already full of refugees, and then move a large number of non-flyable aircraft from multiple bases to....where? The Tyndall F-22s were flown all the way up to Dayton, Ohio. Are you planning on trucking (or blimping) all those aircraft that far? Remember, Michael did considerable damage in Georgia, Alabama, and South Carolina. Once you move the aircraft out of Pensacola, or Eglin or Tyndall, where is a safe and sheltered place to move them to?


On the other hand, with six or eight hardened shelters at any of those three bases, 12 hours prior to landfall of the storm, you hook up towbars to the hangar queens, tow them into the shelters, close the doors, and walk away. The solution is good for the next half century.
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