UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

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spazsinbad

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Unread post03 Oct 2018, 17:56

Appreciate the detail and that all this stuff appears elsewhere in different form. It seems not only I need to be reminded about all the complicated bits & pieces about STOVL in which I have no experience whatsoever but noted the extra tidbit above which I do not recall seeing before. I'll add the engine cycles the power VERY QUICKLY to maintain equilibrium.
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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spazsinbad

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Unread post03 Oct 2018, 18:14

Nite Picks E-mailed:
Attachments
night4.jpg
night2.jpg
night6.jpg
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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zerion

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Unread post03 Oct 2018, 18:24

Image

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Last edited by zerion on 03 Oct 2018, 20:03, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post03 Oct 2018, 19:41

spazsinbad wrote:”...STOVL in which I have no experience whatsoever...”


They’ve made it so easy that even old tailhookers can do it... :wink:
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Unread post03 Oct 2018, 21:02

spazsinbad wrote:Appreciate the detail and that all this stuff appears elsewhere in different form. It seems not only I need to be reminded about all the complicated bits & pieces about STOVL in which I have no experience whatsoever but noted the extra tidbit above which I do not recall seeing before. I'll add the engine cycles the power VERY QUICKLY to maintain equilibrium.


Spaz, i'm guessing that small, quick changes in engine thrust for equilibrium are done with nozzle exit area changes, not fuel flow or rpm changes. A question, do the wing thrusters have a constant vector angle or are they variable?
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spazsinbad

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Unread post03 Oct 2018, 21:26

'JW' I was just riffing about the engine cycling at 0300 my time and then I had to crash - perhaps remembering rongly? I have a heap of info about STOVL ops that has been collated a few times now but perhaps not updated recently for PDF.
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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steve2267

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Unread post03 Oct 2018, 21:28

johnwill wrote:
Spaz, i'm guessing that small, quick changes in engine thrust for equilibrium are done with nozzle exit area changes, not fuel flow or rpm changes. A question, do the wing thrusters have a constant vector angle or are they variable?


In the papers by Dr. Bevilaqua that I have read, the good doctor states that varying the nozzle exit area via the nozzle tail cone affects the amount of power transferred to the lift fan, and that there is little delay (or "slop"?) between nozzle actuation and actual power or thrust changes which greatly enhanced (or simplified?) the ability to control the fore- and aft- vertical lift amounts.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post03 Oct 2018, 22:16

johnwill wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:Appreciate the detail and that all this stuff appears elsewhere in different form. It seems not only I need to be reminded about all the complicated bits & pieces about STOVL in which I have no experience whatsoever but noted the extra tidbit above which I do not recall seeing before. I'll add the engine cycles the power VERY QUICKLY to maintain equilibrium.


Spaz, i'm guessing that small, quick changes in engine thrust for equilibrium are done with nozzle exit area changes, not fuel flow or rpm changes. A question, do the wing thrusters have a constant vector angle or are they variable?


JW, the design utilizes a two-door shutter (Harrier used a singleton) which would seem to lend itself to the idea of some directional control vice simple variability of exit area. One can also find some vague references to the idea, but I don't recall and have never asked. See this link for good pics from spaz some years ago --

viewtopic.php?t=18095
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spazsinbad

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Unread post03 Oct 2018, 23:55

LM QE F-35B FLICKR pics look good: https://www.flickr.com/photos/lockheedm ... 8760927062

Standard LM PR ski jump arstickle:
The Ski Jump: Continuing the UK’s Legacy of Carrier Strike Capability
01 Oct 2018 LM PR

"...Performing the Jump
The F-35B automatically positions the control surfaces and nozzles for takeoff, a unique capability compared with previous STOVL (short takeoff and vertical landing) aircraft. Such automation frees up pilot capacity and provides an added safety enhancement. The aircraft treats the take off just like a regular short take off until it recognizes the six-degree per-second pitch rate and six-degree pitch angle about half way up the ramp.

The horizontal tails and nozzle then automatically maneuver downward, and the vane box does not budge. The vane box sits directly under the lift fan and directs the airflow to allow for the proper lift off the surface...."

Photo: https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1932/311 ... 22_o_d.jpg (4.6Mb) [note pilot has HMDS NITE VISOR UP ie. old HMDS III]


Source: https://www.f35.com/in-depth/detail/how ... mp-takeoff

Animated F-35B: https://media.giphy.com/media/3MbRAqF3r ... /giphy.gif (3Mb)
Attachments
AnimCVFskijumpF-35Bgiphy.gif
QElaunchZoomNiteVisorUP.jpg
QElaunchZoomNiteVisorUPzoom.jpg
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post04 Oct 2018, 00:25

Never used a digital camera however the EXIF info for the night photo earlier is awesome:
"Image Description - BF-4 Flt 511 Sqn Ldr Andy Edgell and BF-5 Flt 374 Mr. Peter Wilson, Night flying aboard HMS Queen Elizabeth on 29 Sep 2018 Make - NIKON CORPORATION
X-Resolution - 300 dpi
Y-Resolution - 300 dpi
Software - Adobe Photoshop Camera Raw 10.1 (Macintosh)
Date and Time (Modified) - 2018:10:02 08:18:51
Artist - Dane Wiedmann
Copyright - Lockheed Martin
ISO Speed - 1600
Sensitivity Type - Recommended Exposure Index
Recommended Exposure Index - 1600
Exif Version - 0230
Date and Time (Original) - 2018:09:29 18:54:51
Date and Time (Digitized) - 2018:09:29 18:54:51
Exposure Bias - 0 EV
Max Aperture Value - 2.8
Metering Mode - Multi-segment
Light Source - Unknown
Sub Sec Time Original - 16
Sub Sec Time Digitized - 16
Color Space - Uncalibrated
Focal Plane X-Resolution - 1552.056122
Focal Plane Y-Resolution - 1552.056122
Focal Plane Resolution Unit - cm
Sensing Method - One-chip color area
File Source - Digital Camera
Scene Type - Directly photographed
CFAPattern - [Red,Green][Green,Blue]
Custom Rendered - Normal
Exposure Mode - Auto
White Balance - Auto
Focal Length (35mm format) - 45 mm
Scene Capture Type - Standard
Gain Control - Low gain up
Contrast - Normal
Saturation - Normal
Sharpness - Normal
Subject Distance Range - Unknown
Lens Info - 24-70mm f/2.8
Lens Model - 24.0-70.0 mm f/2.8
Compression - JPEG (old-style)
Thumbnail Offset - 1180
Thumbnail Length - 9631
Displayed Units X - inches
Displayed Units Y - inches
Copyright Flag - True
Photoshop Thumbnail - (Binary data 9631 bytes, use -b option to extract)
IPTCDigest - 79f50f34550baf2b242e8172d69da72b
Coded Character Set - UTF8
Application Record Version - 4
Date Created - 2018:09:29
Time Created - 18:54:51
Digital Creation Date - 2018:09:29
Digital Creation Time - 18:54:51
By-line - Dane Wiedmann
By-line Title - Flight Test Photographer
Copyright Notice - Lockheed Martin
Caption- Abstract - BF-4 Flt 511 Sqn Ldr Andy Edgell and BF-5 Flt 374 Mr. Peter Wilson, Night flying aboard HMS Queen Elizabeth on 29 Sep 2018
XMPToolkit - Adobe XMP Core 5.6-c128 79.159124, 2016/03/18-14:01:55
Creator Tool - Adobe Photoshop Camera Raw 10.1 (Macintosh)
Rating - 5
Metadata Date - 2018:10:02 08:18:51-04:00
Lens ID - 170
Image Number - 21938
Approximate Focus Distance - 4294967295
Authors Position - Flight Test Photographer
Document ID - xmp.did:3cf48e99-30da-476f-a7d3-41ea568d835e
Original Document ID - BFEC94202195B40B8FA717251F219B7F
Instance ID - xmp.iid:3cf48e99-30da-476f-a7d3-41ea568d835e
Preserved File Name - DSC_3164.NEF
History Action - saved
History Instance ID - xmp.iid:cd691d77-dced-4991-b0b1-d35402147a35
History When - 2018:09:30 09:03:24-04:00
History Software Agent - Adobe Photoshop Camera Raw 10.1 (Macintosh)
History Changed - /metadata
History Parameters - converted from image/x-nikon-nef to image/jpeg, saved to new location
Derived From Instance ID - xmp.iid:c1639247-2d83-4fcc-bf91-22b809f15302
Derived From Document ID - BFEC94202195B40B8FA717251F219B7F
Derived From Original Document ID - BFEC94202195B40B8FA717251F219B7F
Format - image/jpeg
Creator - Dane Wiedmann
Rights - Lockheed Martin
Description - BF-4 Flt 511 Sqn Ldr Andy Edgell and BF-5 Flt 374 Mr. Peter Wilson, Night flying aboard HMS Queen Elizabeth on 29 Sep 2018
Marked - True
DCTEncode Version - 100
APP14 Flags0 - [14], Encoded with Blend=1 downsampling
APP14 Flags1 - (none)
Color Transform - YCbCr
Camera ID - 72157604013121347
Camera Type - Digital SLR"
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lockheedm ... 760927062/
Attachments
QEnightPhotoCameraInfo.gif
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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spazsinbad

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Unread post04 Oct 2018, 01:37

Cringeworthy Musick and the title is just pure laziness. YouTube initially does not recognize 'dashes' so re-insert them!

F35 Lightning jets on HMS Queen Elizabeth | Royal Navy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYv4duwu2p8

RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post04 Oct 2018, 04:49

Attached is a five page PDF extract from the titled excerpt below. Should answer all questions about the LIFTingSYSTEM.
F-35 Air Vehicle Technology Overview

"...5. Roll Post Nozzle Development
The F-35B STOVL lift system uses roll nozzles in each wing to provide roll control in powered-lift operation. The roll nozzle controls thrust by varying the nozzle area using two hinged flaps. Unlike the reaction control systems on legacy vertical and/or short takeoff and landing (V/STOL) aircraft, the F-35 roll posts produce about 10 percent of the vertical thrust through redirected engine fan air. The port and starboard side roll post systems are part-number common and interchangeable, providing improved maintenance flexibility. Actuation for the nozzle flaps is provided by a twin-motor, hydraulic, rotary actuator. External, hydraulically actuated aircraft doors on the underside of the wing are opened in powered-lift operation to provide an exit aperture for roll post thrust.

A key challenge in transitioning to the F-35B was providing adequate roll control authority and rate for store asymmetries and fuel imbalance. The roll post nozzles were positioned as far outboard as the internal wing structure would allow to maximize the moment arm. Main engine fan air to the roll posts was increased to the extent possible while maintaining adequate flow to cool the exhaust liner. Architectural changes in full-authority digital engine control were made to minimize the time delay from roll moment command to roll nozzle actuator response...."
Attachments
STOVL F135 F-35 Air Vehicle Technology Overview 6.2018-3368 pp5.pdf
(409.95 KiB) Downloaded 56 times
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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spazsinbad

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Unread post07 Oct 2018, 00:47

F-35B Lifts OFF of QE Ski Jump to Escape Melting Deck (I think). And a stand easy afterwards.
Attachments
q2 PDF F-25BoffJUMPrearview.jpg
QEbadgeF-35Bq3.jpg
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post07 Oct 2018, 01:03

Should one of the wing nozzles fail I'm guessing the FCS shuts down the other one to compensate? Raise the butt pucker factor for a VL ...
Last edited by popcorn on 07 Oct 2018, 02:22, edited 1 time in total.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
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zerion

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Unread post07 Oct 2018, 01:45

Royal Navy Image Archive

http://213.122.161.212/fotoweb/Grid.fwx ... oSearch=Go

Anyone know how to get access?
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