Russian UAV/UCAV developments

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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mixelflick

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Unread post04 Sep 2018, 14:19

project458 wrote:
mixelflick wrote:3 years for a brand new engine?

I'll take bets on this. Closer to 10 than 3. And then what? 25 planes? 50? When does the worldwide footprint get established for when it needs to deploy? Weapons separation? New parts of the envelope tested due to new and improved engine?

3 years is a pipe dream for all of this...




Su-57 has been going through ordnance tests for the last three years, I suggest you catch up before trash talking :wink:


Really?

Those weapons will have to be re-certified once the super duper stage 2 engines are fitted, so add three years for that. Let's do some math.. 3 years for engines (laughable, but we'll use your figures). 3 more years for weapons release with the new engines. We're now up to 2024. How many do you figure they'll order, given your "Hunter" is next? Or the Mig-41 space plane? LOL Or the PAK DA? Or the upgraded TU-160's? Or the new VTOL fighter? Or new ICBM's? Or the Mig-35?

In all probability, the US PCA will be ready before the truly 5th gen PAK FA gets there. That's if they ever reach true 5th gen status. And have the rubles left over after funding all of their other pipe dreams.

MARK MY WORDS: The US will be flying 6th gen prototypes before Russia fields a 5th gen fighter. And again, that's IF they ever get the super-cruise, integrated avionics and stealth up to snuff. There are strong indications that they are struggling in all areas. If they weren't, you'd have at least 100 PAK FA in squadron service today. You don't. You have PLANS for 12.

That's an experiment, not an operational aircraft...
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project458

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Unread post05 Sep 2018, 16:14

mixelflick wrote:
project458 wrote:
mixelflick wrote:3 years for a brand new engine?

I'll take bets on this. Closer to 10 than 3. And then what? 25 planes? 50? When does the worldwide footprint get established for when it needs to deploy? Weapons separation? New parts of the envelope tested due to new and improved engine?

3 years is a pipe dream for all of this...




Su-57 has been going through ordnance tests for the last three years, I suggest you catch up before trash talking :wink:


Really?

Those weapons will have to be re-certified once the super duper stage 2 engines are fitted, so add three years for that. Let's do some math.. 3 years for engines (laughable, but we'll use your figures). 3 more years for weapons release with the new engines. We're now up to 2024. How many do you figure they'll order, given your "Hunter" is next? Or the Mig-41 space plane? LOL Or the PAK DA? Or the upgraded TU-160's? Or the new VTOL fighter? Or new ICBM's? Or the Mig-35?

In all probability, the US PCA will be ready before the truly 5th gen PAK FA gets there. That's if they ever reach true 5th gen status. And have the rubles left over after funding all of their other pipe dreams.

MARK MY WORDS: The US will be flying 6th gen prototypes before Russia fields a 5th gen fighter. And again, that's IF they ever get the super-cruise, integrated avionics and stealth up to snuff. There are strong indications that they are struggling in all areas. If they weren't, you'd have at least 100 PAK FA in squadron service today. You don't. You have PLANS for 12.

That's an experiment, not an operational aircraft...



Says who?
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botsing

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Unread post05 Sep 2018, 16:22

project458 wrote:Says who?

Ah that's right indeed, Russians just throws stuff on a plane and call it a day and declare it FOC. :roll:
"Those who know don’t talk. Those who talk don’t know"
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Corsair1963

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Unread post06 Sep 2018, 03:49

It's clear Russia is screwed.... :shock:
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project458

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Unread post06 Sep 2018, 05:48

botsing wrote:
project458 wrote:Says who?

Ah that's right indeed, Russians just throws stuff on a plane and call it a day and declare it FOC. :roll:



One Su-57 has going through all manner of testing for the last 8 years, two unless you prove Russian aircraft testing procedure is same as US,( hint its not) then all this talk of doing Weapons going through re certification or how the new engine will take 10 years blablablabla etc.. is moot :P
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milosh

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Unread post06 Sep 2018, 12:14

mixelflick wrote:Really?

Those weapons will have to be re-certified once the super duper stage 2 engines are fitted, so add three years for that.


They didn't do that when they install new engines in Flankers, +130kN Salyut engine, and now +140kN Saturn engine, so why would they need to do weapon testing when they install new engines in Su-57?!?

In fact things are lot easier with Su-57 becuase it carry weapons internally, so maybe they will need to test only external load but I really doubt.

MiG-41? It is just MiG attempt to stay in game because AF doesn't want MiG-35.

IMO MiG-31 replacement will be some Su-57 variant.
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mixelflick

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Unread post06 Sep 2018, 15:41

milosh wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Really?

Those weapons will have to be re-certified once the super duper stage 2 engines are fitted, so add three years for that.


They didn't do that when they install new engines in Flankers, +130kN Salyut engine, and now +140kN Saturn engine, so why would they need to do weapon testing when they install new engines in Su-57?!?

In fact things are lot easier with Su-57 becuase it carry weapons internally, so maybe they will need to test only external load but I really doubt.

MiG-41? It is just MiG attempt to stay in game because AF doesn't want MiG-35.

IMO MiG-31 replacement will be some Su-57 variant.


Really.

So qualifying weapons is EASIER when they're jettisoned from an internal weapons bay at supersonic speeds. This is awesome! Because we can just load the 9x into the F-35's weapons bay and call it a day. No need for those pesky weapons separation tests. Works the same at .6 mach as it does at mach 1.6.

Any new missile the Raptor will be firing should be easy too, right? We'll just load it in the bay and cross our fingers when we hit the launch button. Works the same at mach .2 as it does at 2.2. And anywhere from 0 to 9g's.

I stand corrected. The Russians really know how these things work and have min/max envelope weapons testing down. We can even lay the weapons testing people off at China Lake and other facilities. Think of the $ we'll save!!!
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mixelflick

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Unread post06 Sep 2018, 16:06

I sure will, but be prepared to eat crow :mrgreen:

You sir, are delusional..

I'm going to eat crow? Listen, how many times have the Russians said the PAK FA will be in squadron service by in (pick a year).. 2013, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18. And now 2019. How many times have we heard (with ZERO evidence) "it's going to be a Raptor killer". Now we're hearing about 2nd stage engines being ready in 3 years, etc. The Russians (and by extension, you) have lost ALL credibility.

A dozen pre-production aircraft is not an operational aircraft, by any stretch of the imagination. Not a single nation (not even a banana republic) would claim this. Only Russia, who've constantly been proven wrong on every IOC date they've ever given as a projection. And to top it all off, the only people with inside knowledge of what's really going on with PAK FA (the Indians) quit/pulled out of the project.

But you and others come here to tell us nah, that's not an issue. We're IOC baby, and able to field fully combat capable PAK FA's at a moments notice.

Sure...
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project458

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Unread post06 Sep 2018, 16:22

mixelflick wrote:I sure will, but be prepared to eat crow :mrgreen:

You sir, are delusional..

I'm going to eat crow? Listen, how many times have the Russians said the PAK FA will be in squadron service by in (pick a year).. 2013, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18. And now 2019. How many times have we heard (with ZERO evidence) "it's going to be a Raptor killer". Now we're hearing about 2nd stage engines being ready in 3 years, etc. The Russians (and by extension, you) have lost ALL credibility.

A dozen pre-production aircraft is not an operational aircraft, by any stretch of the imagination. Not a single nation (not even a banana republic) would claim this. Only Russia, who've constantly been proven wrong on every IOC date they've ever given as a projection. And to top it all off, the only people with inside knowledge of what's really going on with PAK FA (the Indians) quit/pulled out of the project.

But you and others come here to tell us nah, that's not an issue. We're IOC baby, and able to field fully combat capable PAK FA's at a moments notice.

Sure...



Thats right, so your prediction about the second stage taking 10 years is rather pointless don't you think?
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milosh

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Unread post06 Sep 2018, 18:24

@mixelflick

All weapon tests done with Su-57/117 are valid for final Su-57! You don't need to test everything again just because of new engine!
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charlielima223

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Unread post07 Sep 2018, 08:02

milosh wrote:@mixelflick

All weapon tests done with Su-57/117 are valid for final Su-57! You don't need to test everything again just because of new engine!


I'm not the most knowledgeable in these kind of things but wouldn't those engines end up changing the flight qualities of the PAKFA, thus significantly changing its flight envelope? Wouldn't that mean that the significant change in flight envelope require additional test and certification for weapons?
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milosh

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Unread post07 Sep 2018, 10:12

charlielima223 wrote:
milosh wrote:@mixelflick

All weapon tests done with Su-57/117 are valid for final Su-57! You don't need to test everything again just because of new engine!


I'm not the most knowledgeable in these kind of things but wouldn't those engines end up changing the flight qualities of the PAKFA, thus significantly changing its flight envelope? Wouldn't that mean that the significant change in flight envelope require additional test and certification for weapons?


Not likely because new engine is for better super cruise that thrust 117 can match but only with AB as I understand.
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mixelflick

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Unread post07 Sep 2018, 16:49

project458 wrote:
mixelflick wrote:I sure will, but be prepared to eat crow :mrgreen:

You sir, are delusional..

I'm going to eat crow? Listen, how many times have the Russians said the PAK FA will be in squadron service by in (pick a year).. 2013, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18. And now 2019. How many times have we heard (with ZERO evidence) "it's going to be a Raptor killer". Now we're hearing about 2nd stage engines being ready in 3 years, etc. The Russians (and by extension, you) have lost ALL credibility.

A dozen pre-production aircraft is not an operational aircraft, by any stretch of the imagination. Not a single nation (not even a banana republic) would claim this. Only Russia, who've constantly been proven wrong on every IOC date they've ever given as a projection. And to top it all off, the only people with inside knowledge of what's really going on with PAK FA (the Indians) quit/pulled out of the project.

But you and others come here to tell us nah, that's not an issue. We're IOC baby, and able to field fully combat capable PAK FA's at a moments notice.

Sure...



Thats right, so your prediction about the second stage taking 10 years is rather pointless don't you think?


What on EARTH are you talking about? No credible aeronautical engineer is going to just slap new engines in an aircraft, say the weapons release envelope is "close enough" and call it a day. My prediction that the 2nd stage engines take 10 years is a LOT closer to reality than your 3.

Let me ask you this: If we didn't have any F-22's in service, just a few test birds with F-100 engines... and the UK (who was a major source of funding) bailed out - would you say we have a very successful program? OR, if we came out and stated there will be NO MASS PRODUCTION of the F-22 (even when new engines are ready), would you say we have a very successful program?

Let's say Russia had SU-57's (about 200) in service with a decade of exercises, deployments under its belt - that's a successful program. OR if Russia had hundreds of F-35 like aircraft rolling off its production lines AND in service with its allies - that's a successful program.

But "plans" for TWELVE SU-57's with only a first stage engine certified and dubious stealth qualities... NOT a successful program. NO plans for mass production. Not a successful program. NO participation in exercises, deployments (2 days to Syria hardly qualifies).. not a successful program.

Look man, the onus is on you. It's on you because Russia has given so many IOC dates and missed them its comical. It's on you because they don't have the right engines ready. It's on you because RUSSIA themselves have said NO MASS PRODUCTION.

So when you have a few hundred built, that have been on operational deployments, participating in exercises and yes, combat proven (like the F-22 and F-35 - see Israel), come talk to me. Until then you have an experiment, not a successful program/5th gen stealth fighter..
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mixelflick

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Unread post07 Sep 2018, 17:05

charlielima223 wrote:
milosh wrote:@mixelflick

All weapon tests done with Su-57/117 are valid for final Su-57! You don't need to test everything again just because of new engine!


I'm not the most knowledgeable in these kind of things but wouldn't those engines end up changing the flight qualities of the PAKFA, thus significantly changing its flight envelope? Wouldn't that mean that the significant change in flight envelope require additional test and certification for weapons?


Of course it does. You don't need to be an aerospace engineer to figure such things out - its common sense. A new engine (regardless of thrust levels as fanboy has tried to tell you) needs to be tested for all sorts of reasons, just one of them being weapons release.

The F-14 and its engines is a great case study in why you just don't slap a new engine in the bird, then say "go fly and fight now boys". In 1981 an alternative engine was tested in the first F-14B, then the designation for a Grumman prototype (BuNo. 157986) with a pair of Pratt & Whitney F401-PW-400 engines. But after extensive tests with this engine technical difficulties occurred and the engine was rejected. It wasn't until the late 1980's (after a lot more testing) did the F-14 finally get her F-110's.

Did the Russian fanboys here catch that? After EXTENSIVE TESTS this new wonder engine turned out to be not so wonderful. It was back to the drawing board. THAT is why these new engines he's speaking of are going to need many years of testing/airframe integration.

But have no fear, he'll have some absurd answer for this too. We'll just sit back and laugh as the 2019, 2020, 2023 IOC dates keep changing. At this rate they'll have an operational 5th gen fighter about the time we're retiring PCA...
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milosh

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Unread post07 Sep 2018, 18:31

@mixeflick


I can agree with you new engine could be PITA but that doesn't have much with weapon tests. New engine will not increase cruise speed so if you need to test Su-57 weapon separation on max cruise speed you can do it with 117, only it would need to use AB.
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