Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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hythelday

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Unread post25 Aug 2018, 09:07

Nikkei Asian Review wrote:To hasten development, Lockheed will send Japan F-22s that have not been deployed by the U.S. Air Force so that it can grasp its performance in advance.


What are they talking about? YF-22?
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geforcerfx

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Unread post26 Aug 2018, 15:48

hythelday wrote:
Nikkei Asian Review wrote:To hasten development, Lockheed will send Japan F-22s that have not been deployed by the U.S. Air Force so that it can grasp its performance in advance.


What are they talking about? YF-22?


DT birds

* Edit : EMD aircraft, I think there was 4, one in museum one crashed.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post27 Aug 2018, 05:57

juretrn wrote:Lockheed's proposal of Super Raptor set to cost $54 billion, Japan to get over 50% of the work:
https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Lockhe ... ighter-jet

Isn't that almost develop-a-F-35 kind of money?



Just talk and not to be taken seriously. Japan isn't going to build new F-22's........... :doh:
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element1loop

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Unread post27 Aug 2018, 07:06

Yup, more like Japan and maybe Australia look into partnering with the USAF on a medium-range PCA penetrating strike fighter capability as neither Ally can afford a true VLO heavy bomber, but both would like more tactical VLO deep strike reach, and extra internal VLO cruise missile and ASM numbers. Terrific Indo-Pac deter force for the mid-certury period.
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
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Corsair1963

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Unread post27 Aug 2018, 07:12

element1loop wrote:Yup, more like Japan and maybe Australia look into partnering with the USAF on a medium-range PCA penetrating strike fighter capability as neither Ally can afford a true VLO heavy bomber, but both would like more tactical VLO deep strike reach, and extra internal VLO cruise missile and ASM numbers. Terrific Indo-Pac deter force for the mid-certury period.



Yes, this is Japan thinking long term at her options. Japan already has a 5th Generation Fighter and it's called the F-35... :wink:
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zero-one

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Unread post27 Aug 2018, 07:39

Maybe the JSDAF will use her F-35's primarily as strike aircraft.
They badly want an F-22 class fighter a.k.a overkill, best in the world air dominance platform.

Something that will be untouchable while flying at 60,000 feet, Mach 1.8.
Japan has a lot of pride, they don't want to go around flying the second best air superiority fighter like 15 other allies. They want to be on par with the US, they wanted F-15s when the F-15 was king. Now they want the reigning air dominance king.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post27 Aug 2018, 07:44

zero-one wrote:Maybe the JSDAF will use her F-35's primarily as strike aircraft.
They badly want an F-22 class fighter a.k.a overkill, best in the world air dominance platform.

Something that will be untouchable while flying at 60,000 feet, Mach 1.8.
Japan has a lot of pride, they don't want to go around flying the second best air superiority fighter like 15 other allies. They want to be on par with the US, they wanted F-15s when the F-15 was king. Now they want the reigning air dominance king.



:doh: :doh: :doh:
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zero-one

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Unread post27 Aug 2018, 08:21

Corsair1963 wrote: :doh: :doh: :doh:


:whistle: :whistle: :whistle:
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knowan

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Unread post27 Aug 2018, 08:52

element1loop wrote:Yup, more like Japan and maybe Australia look into partnering with the USAF on a medium-range PCA penetrating strike fighter capability as neither Ally can afford a true VLO heavy bomber, but both would like more tactical VLO deep strike reach, and extra internal VLO cruise missile and ASM numbers. Terrific Indo-Pac deter force for the mid-certury period.


Revival of the FB-22 concept maybe? The LM proposal to Japan did say something about new wings and increased range.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post27 Aug 2018, 09:16

Yes, Japan isn't thinking of a future 5th Generation Fighter. It's thinking long-term....(i.e. 6th Generation Fighter) Which, really means it is looking for a partner or partners.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post27 Aug 2018, 09:17

Japan isn't spending "Billions" to build just 38 F-35A's........ :doh:
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zero-one

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Unread post27 Aug 2018, 09:39

Corsair1963 wrote:Japan isn't spending "Billions" to build just 38 F-35A's........ :doh:


Great, cause nobody is saying that.
The F-35 will be their workhorse, taking out surface targets, punching holes in the PLA's A2/AD network and taking out it's fair share of enemy aircraft. But for the JSDAF, this is not enough, they apparently are interested in an A-A platform that is second to none.

The F-35 is great, but we need to get over the "its the best for everything" mentality. It's not an F-22 and the F-22 is better at A-A. Japan knows more about the F-35 than most of us and they know this as well.
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element1loop

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Unread post27 Aug 2018, 09:51

I mean the USAF PCA concept of a medium-range deep-penetrating VLO jet that destroys an enemy's IADS, and its air-battle capabilities over their defended territory, and can maintain a sustained presence there while it does it.

Officials involved in the effort have described Penetrating Counter Air as a survivable aircraft that may have design elements similar to a bomber in order to give it a longer range.


https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... r-designs/

VLO regional-range deep-strike with a highly tactically adaptable heavy fighter-bomber. Something the F-22A isn't and the F-35A doesn't have the combination of very long-legs and a much larger internal weapon load.
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
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hornetfinn

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Unread post27 Aug 2018, 13:13

zero-one wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Japan isn't spending "Billions" to build just 38 F-35A's........ :doh:


Great, cause nobody is saying that.
The F-35 will be their workhorse, taking out surface targets, punching holes in the PLA's A2/AD network and taking out it's fair share of enemy aircraft. But for the JSDAF, this is not enough, they apparently are interested in an A-A platform that is second to none.

The F-35 is great, but we need to get over the "its the best for everything" mentality. It's not an F-22 and the F-22 is better at A-A. Japan knows more about the F-35 than most of us and they know this as well.


IMO, F-35 might not be best for everything, but it's likely best bang for the yen. Japan has rather small defece budget and buying F-35 and F-22 derivative would be very expensive and would reduce numbers of both significantly. It would be very expensive to develop F-22 derivative that would suit Japan in the first place. Then it would be costly aircraft to manufacture and operate. It would need own support and maintenance infrastructure and personnel. I think pure F-35 force would be more effective given the budget even though F-22 might have big advantages. IMO, Japan just doesn't have large enough budget to go for two types at the moment. Hell, even USAF is seriously reducing different types in inventory because of this.
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zero-one

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Unread post27 Aug 2018, 15:39

hornetfinn wrote:IMO, F-35 might not be best for everything, but it's likely best bang for the yen. Japan has rather small defece budget and buying F-35 and F-22 derivative would be very expensive and would reduce numbers of both significantly. It would be very expensive to develop F-22 derivative that would suit Japan in the first place. Then it would be costly aircraft to manufacture and operate. It would need own support and maintenance infrastructure and personnel. I think pure F-35 force would be more effective given the budget even though F-22 might have big advantages. IMO, Japan just doesn't have large enough budget to go for two types at the moment. Hell, even USAF is seriously reducing different types in inventory because of this.


This actually makes sense.
But I think the JSDAF are not trying to buy as many F-35s as possible
They already have an idea of how many they want to buy from now to 2040+ maybe. Kinda like how the USAF plans to buy 1763 from now to 2037 IIRC.

And by their estimates, they have the economic power to launch another 5th gen program.
This is Japan we're talking here, 3rd biggest economy, richer than any European country. Yes they have more debt, but so does the US. And they don't have their own fighter program.

They are clearly interested in a Raptor class platform.
Can they afford it?
Thats what we're trying to find out.
But lets not argue that the F-35 is good enough for all their wants.
It may be good enough for all their needs, but thats not enough.
They want a Raptor, plain and simple. The F-35 is not a Raptor. It comes close, but its not.

Now they're lobbying, if they can afford it, they'll push through
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