Finnish DefMin Interest in F-35s NOT Gripens

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magitsu

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Unread post01 Jun 2018, 13:17

Boeing seems to be trying their hardest. Two EA-18G's from VAQ-129 at Whidbey are to feature in the 100th anniversary air show of FiAF on June 16-17. F-35 will feature with a full sized mockup, like Gripen E. Rafale and Typhoon will fly, for the former it's the first time in a Finnish airshow. Last year there were two Super Hornets and Typhoon has featured for at least two years in a row.

https://twitter.com/BoeingDefense/statu ... 8042924032
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loke

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Unread post01 Jun 2018, 14:57

Boeing will try hard but the probability of F-35 winning this is still very very high (more than 99% imho).
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magitsu

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Unread post02 Jun 2018, 11:46

They have already test flown all of them, from the back seat obviously. For F-35 this obviously hasn't been possible. The Gripen one is also only the Gripen Demonstrator, which is somewhere between D and F but without extensive structural mods.
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magitsu

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Unread post17 Jun 2018, 17:00

Eurofighter consortium went balls deep in the 100th anniversary air show of FiAF yesterday and today.
They had seven Typhoons on display, from Italy, UK, Spain and Germany. More than other visiting fighters combined.

Growler made an appearance and some light maneuvers. Rafale dynamic duo put on a proper show, but none were in the ground display for visitors.

F-35 had a replica on display and the visitors were able to go and see the cockpit. Similar setup was available for Gripen E.

LM basically promised that in 2019 the actual F-35 will appear in Finland.

There was some unexpected action. On Thursday a French C-130J had some landing gear hydraulics problems, but backup systems turned out fine. On Saturday Finnish Hawk trainer had another landing gear worry because it blew a tire upon takeoff. It came down with flat right rear tire and veered to the grass in the right at the end of the runway. No major damage.

Typhoon reaped small PR benefits from Sundays surprise visit of the minister of defense, because there were so many of them in the background for pictures.
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steve2267

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Unread post17 Jun 2018, 17:13

magitsu wrote:Eurofighter consortium went balls deep in the 100th anniversary air show of FiAF yesterday and today.
They had seven Typhoons on display, from Italy, UK, Spain and Germany. More than other visiting fighters combined.


The Luftwaffe had a few flyable, eh?
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, add dollop of F-117 & gob of F-22, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well, then bake. Whaddya get? An F-35.
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f4u7_corsair

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Unread post17 Jun 2018, 23:27

Rafale duo seemed to receive universal praise (although n°2 was a bit left behind in some runs, at least on Saturday). Too bad for the lack of ground display indeed, but on the very same weekend, 5 Rafale were mobilized for airshows (may I remind, for a single airforce).

As for the EF, it's good to have sitting ducks on the floor, but it's better to actually demonstrate something in the air. The EF alpha display was boring, as usual (not as much as the Growler's, though). Long repositioning runs, not doing much more than aileron rolls (helps gain 50 kts in a run while pretending you're doing some mad aerobatics!).

I jokingly asked about whether the EFs on display had the ESA radar as advertised on the gates in front of the planes. Mixed reactions... :roll: They also went balls deep in Helsingin Sanomat where they bought a full ad page.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post20 Jun 2018, 21:07

RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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magitsu

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Unread post21 Jun 2018, 06:43

Another, slightly longer Flynn video
https://twitter.com/thef35/status/1007975022059802625

Video which has Flynn's Paris F-35 airshow and his 1987 F-18 show as picture in picture for comparison
https://twitter.com/thef35/status/1007678063096631297
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hornetfinn

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Unread post21 Jun 2018, 07:06

Thans magitsu, that latter video is very nice comparison of the two jets. Hornet is still very impressive jet in air show setting.
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magitsu

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Unread post21 Jun 2018, 07:12

Indeed it is. Here's an example, full routine from inside the cockpit. From last weekend.

https://www.facebook.com/Ilmavoimat/vid ... 537639217/
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magitsu

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Unread post06 Jul 2018, 09:27

Finland just announced this morning a really surprising pick for their new surface to surface missile. Israeli Aerospace Industries Gabriel. It will be fitted into the main surface combatants of the Navy, and will also serve on a truck mounted coastal launcher platform. That makes it the main weapon choice of the Finnish Navy, apart from sea mines (some very recent kit, but domestic one, there as well).

https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.p ... ssels.html

Possible fighter jet connection is not immediately obvious. Though they did send a RFI to Israel for the armament/sensors side of the fighter buy.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post06 Jul 2018, 10:57

The selection of Israeli missile over the others is very interesting and rather surprising. That it beat Nordic options, RBS-15 and NSM is interesting as former is currently used in earlier variant and NSM is supposed to be very good and modern missile also. So now we will have all our anti-ship missiles coming from Israel, Spike-ER for short range/small targets and Gabriel for long range/large targets.
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jakobs

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Unread post08 Jul 2018, 11:11

hornetfinn wrote:The selection of Israeli missile over the others is very interesting and rather surprising. That it beat Nordic options, RBS-15 and NSM is interesting as former is currently used in earlier variant and NSM is supposed to be very good and modern missile also. So now we will have all our anti-ship missiles coming from Israel, Spike-ER for short range/small targets and Gabriel for long range/large targets.


I love that they picked it! Shows that they really go by the missiles own merits rather than politic when evaluating the options.

So maybe also Barak 8 for the new ships? Seems like a really capable offering.
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magitsu

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Unread post08 Jul 2018, 11:19

jakobs wrote:So maybe also Barak 8 for the new ships? Seems like a really capable offering.

It's possible because unlike these the new surface to air missiles don't need to fit anything but the new ship class. Though Barak only has India as a reference, which is terrible compared to the customer list of ESSM.

But the rest might actually be a package deal based on the combat management system provider's preferences. Because they have asked for packages including weapons (AAM), which is a similar approach to the Fighter jet acquisition project. In that one the first rough sketches will be done early 2019. More specific adjustment late 2019. Final bids in 2020.
Ship CMS pick and rest should be settled by the end of this year.

Another thing that might effect the AAM choice is that there's a project to improve the range of NASAMS II + AMRAAM combo. That either means a new missile or some new launch platforms connected to the system. ESSM is clearly potential also in this regard. MEADS and Patriot won't be within means: SAMP/T (Aster) also went head to head vs. Nasams originally and lost hands down due to utility/cost.
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magitsu

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Unread post15 Jul 2018, 17:25

Regarding Gripens, Aboulafia had something to say:

“The potential is great. If you apply Boeing’s’ cost control methods and supply management methods to the Gripen, you get the Gripen product at a lower price point,” he said. “That’s always been the Gripen’s problem. Great plane. Way too expensive for what it is.” https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... s-unclear/

He's talking about Gripen E specifically. The article is talking about what Boeing could bring to Saab, probably not unlike what F-35 is doing trying to save costs. They just have less than 100 frames bought, which doesn't justify similar investment.
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