F-35 and Airshows

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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gta4

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Unread post19 Jun 2018, 04:13

If you want a fast turn without bleeding much energy, check this:

download/file.php?id=25497

Original video (For Pierre Spray fanboys or even himself who are crying "GIF is edited and accelerated!")

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6cptWIyOVU
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gta4

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Unread post19 Jun 2018, 07:45

playloud wrote:Some nice turns!



If this beast is upgraded to 9G, that maneuver would be even faster than what is shown in this video.
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vilters

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Unread post19 Jun 2018, 14:12

You won't die in the turn, as nothing can turn at the same rate as you can but you will die right after the turn, when gasping for the lost energy.

These "High G" turns prove nothing at all. We aren"t in WW1 or 2 any more.

While you are playing, and suffering the "G", you opponent's wingman will fire from 20 Nm away, and send a telegram to your widow.
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steve2267

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Unread post19 Jun 2018, 14:58

gta4 wrote:
playloud wrote:Some nice turns!



If this beast is upgraded to 9G, that maneuver would be even faster than what is shown in this video.


Isn't that largely air-speed dependent? I was unable to view the Mach meter from the video viewpoint, so I am not able to make any definitive statement as to whether the F-35 was g-limited in the bat turn at the beginning of this video. Am I missing something?
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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steve2267

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Unread post19 Jun 2018, 15:07

vilters wrote:You won't die in the turn, as nothing can turn at the same rate as you can but you will die right after the turn, when gasping for the lost energy.

These "High G" turns prove nothing at all. We aren"t in WW1 or 2 any more.

That really all depends, doesn't it? The pilot isn't forced to piss away all his energy in one yuge, bat turn, but the F-35 apparently gives him that option. Unlike the F/A-18, that RBFM in the back lets him regain that energy right quick, by all pilot accounts I have read. Or the pilot can choose to keep his E up, and play the rate game. "How do you want to play? Doesn't matter... whatever you can do, I can do better, or kill you another way," drawls the F-35.

vilters wrote:While you are playing, and suffering the "G", you opponent's wingman will fire from 20 Nm away, and send a telegram to your widow.


Actually, some aircraft (Viper and Typhie come to mind), more or less force you to endure 8-9g maneuvers to max perform the aircraft. The F-35 appears to enable the pilot to sluff off some airspeed and achieve similar turn rates at a gee or two less -- if the situation depends on it. One big bat turn may or may not be the best way to sluff off that speed, but its an option. And the demonstration of that turn hints at just what this jet is capable of.

WRT to the last statement, I doubt if any jet can target an F-35 from 20nm, let alone distinguish a maneuvering F-35 from dear wing leader and target only the F-35.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Gums

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Unread post19 Jun 2018, 15:38

Salute!

Well now, at about 360 knots CAS and below 8 or 9,000 feet, the Viper could hold the famous 9 gees all thru the 360 and come out at the same speed, then go vertical. That was 30 years ago with the "small engine"

So the wounded duck scenario is not a player in the A2A configuration, or fairly clean after dropping the pig iron.

Up at a decent strike altitude, you won't be able to hold 9 gees, but prolly one to two more than brand "x" and he will have a larger turn radius and could be bleeding energy himself. We saw that early on against the Eagles. Other "targets" were like a half a turn and then last ditch maneuver. Remember, every gee you have over the other guy is more accelertion toward the center of the turn.

I am not concerned with Stubby gogfight capability at all.

Gums sends...

P.S. Steve has two great references RE; Viper control laws and aero in the early days,
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"God in your guts, good men at your back, wings that stay on - and Tally Ho!"
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zero-one

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Unread post19 Jun 2018, 16:32

vilters wrote:These "High G" turns prove nothing at all. We aren"t in WW1 or 2 any more.


High G turns weren't possible in WW1 and 2, these are actually traits of modern combat.

vilters wrote:While you are playing, and suffering the "G", you opponent's wingman will fire from 20 Nm away, and send a telegram to your widow.


This is not always the case. There were times where F-14s, 15s and 16s employed hard maneuvering to fight and win.

Remember Red Flag 17-1. The F-35 tallied 140+ kills to 7 losses. All losses were WVR. Does this mean WVR only happened 7 times, that would imply that the F-35 lost all of it's WVR engagements so I doubt it. What that means is that even with 5th gen, WVR is a possibility.

Being able to pull hard and never needing it is much better than not being able to do it then finding yourself needing it and wishing you can convert all your data sharing bandwith into excess thrust instead.
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Unread post19 Jun 2018, 20:06

Red Flag, => LOL.
The outcome of ANY Red Flag mission can be 100% predicted when you read the ROE.
I will remember a RED Flag the day they stop writing those crazy ROE's.

The ONLY ROE should be : Min Safety altitude is ….. Area is yours. … See you in debrief. Period.

Red Commander should attack with a UNKNOWN number, and an UNKNOWN combination of aircraft (enlarge that to UNKNOWN number of weapon systems (up to and including the shut down of the power system of the range), at UNKNOWN intervals.

Blue should be on alert ON THE ground and scramble an UNKNOWN number of UNKNOWN aircraft.

The ONLY 2 ROE's common for Blue and Red is the min safety altitude, and the losers pay the bar bill.

All the rest is comedy capers.
Last edited by vilters on 19 Jun 2018, 20:21, edited 1 time in total.
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steve2267

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Unread post19 Jun 2018, 20:15

vilters wrote:Red Commander should attack with a UNKNOWN number, and an UNKNOWN combination of aircraft(enlarge that to weapon systems), at UNKNOWN intervals.


Kind of like Red Air getting respawned at UNKNOWN time & place, WVR of F-35's, eh?

I had no idea you are a professional military combat pilot, let alone an instructor vilters. Are you a patch wearer too?
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post19 Jun 2018, 20:27

LOL.
I will write you a set of ROE's, and whatever you try or do, the C-130 (or choose the A/C that "needs a win") , WILL win the 2019 Red Flag. That is how "set-up" these things have become under the ALL covering excuse of safety..

Prepare is good.
Safety is good
Briefings are good.

Until you "over" prepare, or "overbrief", or "over-plan". => The you are "steering" the outcome.
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vilters

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Unread post19 Jun 2018, 20:34

LOL again. real LOL.
You tell me to remember Red Flag Huh ! => OK, I will.

One of the last red Flags the A-10 scored the highest number of A2A kills.
So? ? ? => The A-10 is the best A2A fighter.

That is how "real" Red Flag has become these last years.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post19 Jun 2018, 20:42

You might want to actually listen to pilots & Flag Officers give testimony on Red Flag.

In short, you are FOS.

Specifically, they talk about the 'last day" where it's a Red-Air "no holds barred" type of engagement and other times where they spring surprises on the pilots... So much for "scripted".
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Unread post20 Jun 2018, 02:28

Salute!

Vilters is right about the ROE determining the outcome of some scenarios/engagements, but not all. WRT other opinions, I question actual experience in these matters from an operators' duty assignment. We can match up combt misions and number of Red Flag and Green Flag episodes, and number of times being the "mission commander" for the Blue side.

As long as you have humans operating or "controlling" the dogs of war, there is room for improvization or even blatant ROE violations! Imagine that?

The Red and Green Flags I flew in or helped from outside elements but not actually flying myself had ROE mainly about safety and "blue" losses. Red forces could re-generate in order to simulate numerical superiority. Some blues could be "killed" but continue the mission unless "bonged" by the exercise controllers. This was to allow the Reds more oppo to engage Blues.

My A-7D Sqd Ops Officer at The Beach sat across the desk from me ( I was Asst Ops and senior flight CO). So he was on the planning team for the A-7D/A-10A flyoff. He came back one day and told me and all around which plane wuld come out on top. Duhhhh?

I finally found an on line source of the Av Leak issue with my infamous letter to the editor that earned me a letter of reprimand. You may have to "register" with AvWeek and endure morning email , but you will be able to browse decades of Av Week issues at no $$$ cost. Sep 1973

http://archive.aviationweek.com/issue/1 ... #!&pid=126

Gums sends...
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Unread post20 Jun 2018, 02:50

McAdooAvWeek17dec1973 http://archive.aviationweek.com/issue/1 ... #!&pid=126 + PDF of exact page attached.
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A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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Unread post20 Jun 2018, 07:58

@vilters

Redflag is supposed to simulate realistic combat scenarios, they don't make ROEs just to make the F-35 loose or a C-130 win as you put it.

and in every single conflict pilots are quoted for saying that what they saw in combat was exactly like what they saw in Redflag.

I'm simply addressing the comment you made where you dismiss traditional ACM as "World War 2 tactics".

Just because we heard a pilot say that he always gets shot down whenever he enters a turning fight, or a pilot say that being able to turn is the least impressive thing about this 5th gen fighter, doesn't mean we need to dismiss ACM completely.

There are still plenty of pilots out there that see it as a relevant tactic that needs to be mastered.
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