Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

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citanon

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Unread post14 Feb 2018, 11:40

Any word on whether F35 was used in the second round of strikes?
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Unread post14 Feb 2018, 12:09

Always pays to read the entire article at source (for example I'm not allowed to post an entire article [unless very short]).
"...Nor were they [F-35s] tasked to lead the follow-on wave of strikes on 12 separate Syrian and Iranian assets in the punitive operation launched later that day in response to the F-16I downing...."
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post14 Feb 2018, 13:16

Ahh, missed that part. Thanks!
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Unread post14 Feb 2018, 13:56

:devil: No wonder. :doh: I had trouble finding the text amongst all those stooped crappy ads mangling the text. :drool: :mrgreen:
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Unread post14 Feb 2018, 14:17

From what I've read elsewhere, the existing standing Israeli squadrons have been performing these strikes for quite some time now - and with good success. These are squadrons that have been stood up and training for these missions for years.

This time the Syrian's got lucky.

Nothing to do with the F-35 - they barely have a handful yet. They don't yet have the training and operational experience of the existing squadrons.

It's not like if you claim that if the Israeli's had acquired another aircraft (for example, Maus' beloved Super-Hornet) that it wouldn't have happened.
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Unread post14 Feb 2018, 21:49

How does one escape TWENTY missiles in a fourth gen fighter?
ANALYSIS: How F-16I loss will reshape Israel's offensive strategy
14 Feb 2018 Arie Egozi

"...An F-16I "Sufa" fighter arrived at the border area from a base in northern Israel a few minutes later, and was met with heavy fire from Syrian surface-to-air missile batteries: mainly Russian-made SA-5 systems.

While an investigation is ongoing, Israeli sources indicate that at least 20 missiles were launched towards the fighter, which was damaged after one exploded close to it. Both crew members ejected before the aircraft crashed. One of them was severely wounded and the other escaped with only minor injuries....

...While the Syrian army has been badly damaged during the ongoing civil war, the nation's surface-to-air missile capability has remained almost intact, with equipment including SA-5 and SA-17 batteries supplied by Russia. Its military appears to be prepared to mirror Iranian doctrine by launching large salvoes of weapons against airborne threats: a practice which could encourage Israel to employ surface-to-surface missiles where possible – protecting its air force assets from attacking such targets up to a distance of 400km (216nm). Defence minister Avigdor Lieberman earlier this year expressed his full support for the development of such a capability...."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... en-445921/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post14 Feb 2018, 23:54

spazsinbad wrote:How does one escape TWENTY missiles in a fourth gen fighter?
ANALYSIS: How F-16I loss will reshape Israel's offensive strategy
14 Feb 2018 Arie Egozi

"...An F-16I "Sufa" fighter arrived at the border area from a base in northern Israel a few minutes later, and was met with heavy fire from Syrian surface-to-air missile batteries: mainly Russian-made SA-5 systems.

While an investigation is ongoing, Israeli sources indicate that at least 20 missiles were launched towards the fighter, which was damaged after one exploded close to it. Both crew members ejected before the aircraft crashed. One of them was severely wounded and the other escaped with only minor injuries....

...While the Syrian army has been badly damaged during the ongoing civil war, the nation's surface-to-air missile capability has remained almost intact, with equipment including SA-5 and SA-17 batteries supplied by Russia. Its military appears to be prepared to mirror Iranian doctrine by launching large salvoes of weapons against airborne threats: a practice which could encourage Israel to employ surface-to-surface missiles where possible – protecting its air force assets from attacking such targets up to a distance of 400km (216nm). Defence minister Avigdor Lieberman earlier this year expressed his full support for the development of such a capability...."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... en-445921/

20?!
How much do those missiles cost? That’s got to be a fair fraction of the price of the aircraft downed.
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Unread post15 Feb 2018, 00:19

Yeah BUT - the publicity/propaganda is PRICELESS!
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tsl256

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Unread post15 Feb 2018, 04:30

The initial assessment states that the F-16 was shot down because it was flying too high.

https://www.haaretz.com/whdcMobileSite/ ... -1.5808981
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element1loop

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Unread post15 Feb 2018, 09:48

Given the battle was fairly close to Israel I'm guessing they had a large excess of fuel to burn to make the missiles work hard (loose energy and extend time and distance) to get close, and be almost spent on arrival. Altitude would help a lot. Turning ... not so much.

Even then you'd need excellent SA to know where the SAMS are, and where to go.

Netted sensors in a 4th gen and support aircraft might be able to provide the SAM SA advantage to the pilots, that gives EA a chance to work.

And did they use AAMs to home on emitter, and force them to pull the plug on SARH missiles?

Edit: IDF are pretty good at getting cheap missiles to hit rockets.
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Unread post15 Feb 2018, 11:46

In the past much was made of how the F-35 was not quite the air superiority weapon F-22 is however modern warfare appears to be like this incident, states using proxy combatants aka terrorists against other states where the prime requirement is to take out these hostile combatants and their machinery under ground fire. For this the stealthy survivable strike fighter is the best answer and F-35 is now available in a little quantity in Israel and other world hotspots for US and all its allies. Its time has come and is now, the US military got this F-22/F-35 Hi-Lo formula right again after the F-15/F-16 one even if the F-22 ratio of this mix is a bit light due to bad political strategical thinking. Nevermind, the PCA will correct that in the future.
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castlebravo

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Unread post15 Feb 2018, 21:25

This conflict in Syria has me thinking about what the future looks like. We know Russia has S400 batteries in country. While we are not attacking them directly, and they are not attacking us directly, what if some components of that IADS start being used to support missile systems operated by the enemy we are fighting? Consider a scenario where the enemy we are actively fighting has a bunch of TELARs distributed across the battlefield while all the search radars and C4 support are off-limits due to political realities. Such a situation could be even more challenging than a direct shooting war against the near peer adversary providing support. Legacy platforms may soon be obsolete for everything but the lowest of low intensity conflicts.
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element1loop

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Unread post16 Feb 2018, 05:51

castlebravo wrote:This conflict in Syria has me thinking about what the future looks like. We know Russia has S400 batteries in country. While we are not attacking them directly, and they are not attacking us directly, what if some components of that IADS start being used to support missile systems operated by the enemy we are fighting? Consider a scenario where the enemy we are actively fighting has a bunch of TELARs distributed across the battlefield while all the search radars and C4 support are off-limits due to political realities. Such a situation could be even more challenging than a direct shooting war against the near peer adversary providing support. Legacy platforms may soon be obsolete for everything but the lowest of low intensity conflicts.


The 'international incident' dimension and responsibility applies to the guy with S400 sensor net supporting systems firing at you, too.

If one guy shoots and another guy targets, both are combatants operating weapon systems within a kill chain. Both are targets.

The S400 owners better be using it for own force protection only.

But even if they did, or were, it still comes down to the lock sensor, launcher complex and the missiles supported by it, datalinks, and terminal mechanisms. The solutions to these remain the same as before.

Are the SAMs more ready? Probably.

But only until comms support is disrupted (eliminate comms networks) or S400 sensor has a bad-hair day from a salvo of anon (little-green-men style) artillery rockets (I'm sure a rapid solution is in place already).

They know not to test the boundries. Would they want to have to explain how their expensive impenetrable S400 got smoked?
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castlebravo

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Unread post16 Feb 2018, 16:05

element1loop wrote:
castlebravo wrote:This conflict in Syria has me thinking about what the future looks like. We know Russia has S400 batteries in country. While we are not attacking them directly, and they are not attacking us directly, what if some components of that IADS start being used to support missile systems operated by the enemy we are fighting? Consider a scenario where the enemy we are actively fighting has a bunch of TELARs distributed across the battlefield while all the search radars and C4 support are off-limits due to political realities. Such a situation could be even more challenging than a direct shooting war against the near peer adversary providing support. Legacy platforms may soon be obsolete for everything but the lowest of low intensity conflicts.


The 'international incident' dimension and responsibility applies to the guy with S400 sensor net supporting systems firing at you, too.

If one guy shoots and another guy targets, both are combatants operating weapon systems within a kill chain. Both are targets.

The S400 owners better be using it for own force protection only.

But even if they did, or were, it still comes down to the lock sensor, launcher complex and the missiles supported by it, datalinks, and terminal mechanisms. The solutions to these remain the same as before.

Are the SAMs more ready? Probably.

But only until comms support is disrupted (eliminate comms networks) or S400 sensor has a bad-hair day from a salvo of anon (little-green-men style) artillery rockets (I'm sure a rapid solution is in place already).

They know not to test the boundries. Would they want to have to explain how their expensive impenetrable S400 got smoked?


I'm not talking about Russian fire control radars illuminating targets for Syrians missiles, I'm talking about Syrian systems being alerted when a target enters their effective range. This doesn't even have to involve the normal data link methods used for a full-on IADS, it could be a guy with a radio or even a cell phone making the call. It could also be a Russian fighter or AEW&C calling out contacts in the clear on their version of a guard channel. If a Russian system is tracking our aircraft, it is a safe bet that they sharing that information with their allies.
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Unread post15 Mar 2018, 11:05

The Israeli news site "Walla" post yesterday that the Adir - F-35I made its first operational mission recently. what exactly was the mission we don't know, it is classified.

Here's the link, it's in Hebrew, but you can auto translate.
https://news.walla.co.il/item/3141868
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