Russia to develop VTOL fighter

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zerion

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Unread post21 Jul 2017, 00:09

Russia’s Defense Ministry is currently in talks with aircraft makers to discuss the development of a promising vertical take-off and landing (VTOL) plane for a future aircraft carrier, Russian Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov said.

The fighter jet will derive from a group of vertical take-off and landing planes manufactured by the Yakovlev Company, he added.

"The Defense Ministry is planning to launch the construction of an advanced aircraft carrier in the distant future, at the final stage of the 2018-2025 state armament program. Of course, the production of new-generation aircraft will begin by that time," Borisov said at the MAKS 2017 international airshow...

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... rrier.html
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Unread post21 Jul 2017, 01:24

HAHAHA.. good one...
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Unread post21 Jul 2017, 13:43

zerion wrote:Russia’s Defense Ministry is currently in talks with aircraft makers to discuss the development of a promising vertical take-off and landing (VTOL) plane for a future aircraft carrier, Russian Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov said.

The fighter jet will derive from a group of vertical take-off and landing planes manufactured by the Yakovlev Company, he added.

"The Defense Ministry is planning to launch the construction of an advanced aircraft carrier in the distant future, at the final stage of the 2018-2025 state armament program. Of course, the production of new-generation aircraft will begin by that time," Borisov said at the MAKS 2017 international airshow...

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... rrier.html


Are they dusting off their Yak 38s and Yak 141s again? Back to the future!!!!
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Unread post21 Jul 2017, 21:46

mk82 wrote:
zerion wrote:Russia’s Defense Ministry is currently in talks with aircraft makers to discuss the development of a promising vertical take-off and landing (VTOL) plane for a future aircraft carrier, Russian Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov said.

The fighter jet will derive from a group of vertical take-off and landing planes manufactured by the Yakovlev Company, he added.

"The Defense Ministry is planning to launch the construction of an advanced aircraft carrier in the distant future, at the final stage of the 2018-2025 state armament program. Of course, the production of new-generation aircraft will begin by that time," Borisov said at the MAKS 2017 international airshow...

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... rrier.html


Are they dusting off their Yak 38s and Yak 141s again? Back to the future!!!!


141 was demonstrator with R-79-300 engine (~150kN), proposed fighters would be: YAK-41M with R-179-300 engine (200kN) and "massive" YAK-43 (NK-32 engine that is Tu-160 engine :shock:)
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Unread post21 Jul 2017, 22:27

milosh wrote:
mk82 wrote:
zerion wrote:Russia’s Defense Ministry is currently in talks with aircraft makers to discuss the development of a promising vertical take-off and landing (VTOL) plane for a future aircraft carrier, Russian Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov said.

The fighter jet will derive from a group of vertical take-off and landing planes manufactured by the Yakovlev Company, he added.

"The Defense Ministry is planning to launch the construction of an advanced aircraft carrier in the distant future, at the final stage of the 2018-2025 state armament program. Of course, the production of new-generation aircraft will begin by that time," Borisov said at the MAKS 2017 international airshow...

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... rrier.html


Are they dusting off their Yak 38s and Yak 141s again? Back to the future!!!!


141 was demonstrator with R-79-300 engine (~150kN), proposed fighters would be: YAK-41M with R-179-300 engine (200kN) and "massive" YAK-43 (NK-32 engine that is Tu-160 engine :shock:)


That engine is about a foot more in diameter than an F135 and twice the weight. At 55k, not enough bang for the size.
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Unread post21 Jul 2017, 22:32

"The Defense Ministry is planning to launch the construction of an advanced aircraft carrier in the distant future, at the final stage of the 2018-2025 state armament program. Of course, the production of new-generation aircraft will begin by that time"


Where can I bet money on neither of those things happening?

There isn't even a shipyard with production facilities large enough to build proposed carrier right now.
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Unread post21 Jul 2017, 23:09

Maybe they want to license the F35 for local production. You know, hit old buddy Lockheed back for their Yak-141 investment all those years back. :mrgreen:
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Unread post21 Jul 2017, 23:56

citanon wrote:You know, hit old buddy Lockheed back for their Yak-141 investment all those years back. :mrgreen:


double-facepalm1.jpg


Convair model 200.jpg
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Unread post22 Jul 2017, 04:36

sferrin wrote:
citanon wrote:You know, hit old buddy Lockheed back for their Yak-141 investment all those years back. :mrgreen:


double-facepalm1.jpg


Convair model 200.jpg


I'm referring to this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakovlev_ ... h_Lockheed

Following the announcement by the CIS on September 1991 that it could no longer fund development of the Yak-41M, Yakovlev entered into discussions with several foreign partners who could help fund the program. Lockheed Corporation, which was in the process of developing the X-35 for the US Joint Strike Fighter program, stepped forward, and with their assistance 48-2 was displayed at the Farnborough Airshow in September 1992. Yakovlev announced that they had reached an agreement with Lockheed for funds of $385 to $400 million for three new prototypes and an additional static test aircraft to test improvements in design and avionics. Planned modifications for the proposed Yak-41M included an increase in STOL weight to 21,500 kg (47,400 lb). One of the prototypes would have been a dual-control trainer. Though no longer flyable, both 48-2 and 48-3 were exhibited at the 1993 Moscow airshow. The partnership began in late 1991, though it was not publicly revealed by Yakovlev until 6 September 1992, and was not revealed by Lockheed until June 1994.


Did Lockheed learn anything useful? Who knows. But they did help Yakovlev out to the tune of $400 million way back in the day. Time for the YAK to pay back. Amiright? :D
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Unread post22 Jul 2017, 13:01

hythelday wrote:
"The Defense Ministry is planning to launch the construction of an advanced aircraft carrier in the distant future, at the final stage of the 2018-2025 state armament program. Of course, the production of new-generation aircraft will begin by that time"


Where can I bet money on neither of those things happening?

There isn't even a shipyard with production facilities large enough to build proposed carrier right now.


Right now, yes but don't forget they are investing in shipbuilding, for example Zvezda shipyard will build large ships (350.000tons):
http://www.offshoreenergytoday.com/wp-c ... 64x471.jpg

And if you google, you will see massive crane is in process of assembling in that shipyard.

But big question can Russia really afford super carrier? I don't so. New vtol fighter is lot more logical solution for russian carrier fleet, they can make smaller (similar size carrier as they used today) and can use it even from future lhd ships.
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Unread post22 Jul 2017, 14:30

milosh wrote:Right now, yes but don't forget they are investing in shipbuilding, for example Zvezda shipyard will build large ships (350.000tons):
http://www.offshoreenergytoday.com/wp-c ... 64x471.jpg

And if you google, you will see massive crane is in process of assembling in that shipyard.

But big question can Russia really afford super carrier? I don't so. New vtol fighter is lot more logical solution for russian carrier fleet, they can make smaller (similar size carrier as they used today) and can use it even from future lhd ships.


That is a nice render. Unfortunately a lot has changed since.

South Korean DSNE have since left the project, and for some reason German engineering contractors have also high-tailed since nobody is to keen to be plastered with sanctions and fines for working on dual-purpose projects with the russians. Russian Big Oil, who were providing $$$ for the project, and were also planning to build ice class super tankers there first and foremost, are not doing too well financially, and neither is Russian National Welfare Fund.

Here are some more recent news about "Zvezda shipbuilding supercluster":
"4 billion roubles embezzled during "Zvezda" construction", April 2015
http://www.rbc.ru/society/16/04/2015/55 ... 1bdcf8312e
""Zvezda" doesn't have enough orders", 2017
http://www.rbc.ru/newspaper/2017/04/24/ ... f79f1defdf
"Construction site now hiring workers for "Zvezda" project in Pimorye region", September 2016, with wonderful comments about 12,000 rouble salary.
http://www.newsvl.ru/society/2016/09/22/151888/
"Rosneft seeks more support for Zvezda shipyard", February 2015
http://www.motorship.com/news101/ships- ... a-shipyard

Note, those news are strictly oil&gas, now for some military news:
I.e. from MoD official channel, TV Zvezda (no relation):
https://tvzvezda.ru/news/forces/content ... 9-bnt5.htm
""Vostochnaya Verf" to recieve MoD order for new ships".. what ships? OPVs, auxillaries, and pontoons. Video shows how it's in real life, not on renders.

They have 7,5 years to build up the huge shipyard, train enough qualified workers for every level and on top of that fund the whole damn thing. Not gonna happen. But I bet Putin is really happy they got that damned peninsula back, it was all worth it.
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Unread post22 Jul 2017, 14:48

Old news, Zvezda shipyard today:
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Last edited by milosh on 22 Jul 2017, 14:56, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread post22 Jul 2017, 14:52

milosh wrote:Old news. Zvezda shipyard today:


Impressive.

Well, let's see how it turns out. I'm still willing to wager a bet worth a six-pack of beer neither the carrier, nor the new VTOL fighter materialize by December 31st 2025.
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Unread post22 Jul 2017, 15:19

hythelday wrote:
milosh wrote:Old news. Zvezda shipyard today:


Impressive.

Well, let's see how it turns out. I'm still willing to wager a bet worth a six-pack of beer neither the carrier, nor the new VTOL fighter materialize by December 31st 2025.


2018-2025 is next armament program in which they will decide about new carrier and that VTOL fighter. So 2025 isn't year when we expect they be build.

Zvezda isn't on Crimea, it is Russian far east.
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Unread post22 Jul 2017, 15:58

citanon wrote:I'm referring to this:


I'm referring to this:

"A great deal of misinformation has appeared on the Internet regarding the relationship of the Soviet Yak-41 (later Yak-141), NATO reporting name Freestyle, to the X-35 and the rest of the JSF program. The Pratt & Whitney 3BSD nozzle design predates the Russian work. In fact the 3BSD was tested with a real engine almost twenty years before the first flight of the Yak.

Throughout the 1970s and 1980s, the Soviet Navy wanted a supersonic STOVL fighter to operate from its ski jump equipped carriers. At what point the Yakovlev Design Bureau became aware of the multi-swivel nozzle design is not known, but the Soyuz engine company created its own variant of it. The Yak-41 version of the nozzle, from published pictures, appears to be a three-bearing swivel duct with a significant offset “kink.” The Yak-141 also used two RKBM RD-41 lift engines – an almost identical arrangement to the Convair Model 200 design. The aircraft was also re-labeled as a Yak-141 to imply a production version, but no order for follow-on series came from the Russian Navy.

The Yak-141 was flown at the Paris Airshow in 1991. The flight displays of the Yak were suspended when the heat from the lift engines started to dislodge asphalt from the tarmac. At the 1992 Farnborough show, the Yak was limited to conventional takeoffs and landings with hovers performed 500 feet above the runway to avoid a repeat performance of asphalt damage. But the Yak-141 does deserve credit for being the first jet fighter to fly with a three-bearing swivel nozzle – twenty-five years after it was first designed in the United States.

During the early days of the JAST effort, Lockheed (accompanied by US government officials from the JAST program office) visited the Yakovlev Design Bureau along with several other suppliers of aviation equipment (notably also the Zvezda K-36 ejection seat) to examine the Yakovlev technologies and designs.

Yakovlev was looking for money to keep its VTOL program alive, not having received any orders for a production version of the Yak-141. Lockheed provided a small amount of funding in return for obtaining performance data and limited design data on the Yak-141. US government personnel were allowed to examine the aircraft. However, the 3BSN design was already in place on the X-35 before these visits.

The 3BSD was invented in America in the 1960s, proposed by Convair to the US Navy in the 1970s, first flown by the Russians in the late 1980s, re-engineered from the 1960 Pratt & Whitney design for the X-35 in the 1990s, and put into production for the F-35 in the 2000s. Sometimes a good idea has to wait for the right application and set of circumstances to come along. One moral of this story is not to throw out good work done in the past. It just might be needed later on."


http://www.codeonemagazine.com/article.html?item_id=137

citanon wrote:Did Lockheed learn anything useful?


Not really.

citanon wrote:Who knows.


Lockheed Martin
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