Swiss Lightning?

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noth

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Unread post23 Feb 2017, 19:27

Not a bad idea.

However at today's press conference, Swiss Federal Councillor for Defence Guy Parmelin announced that the F/A-18s will have their life prolonged to serve till 2030, including a buy of "radar missiles", aka AIM-120s, and various upgrades to keep them uptodate. The decision to arm them with AGMs / bombs has been pushed back to a later date, as this was rather controversial (makes the Left think they might be used to bomb abroad, in violation of neutrality).

This means the next acquisition won't be entering service till midway in the next decade... We'll see what's still available by then. I bet they'd like Lightnings. Probably not B models, the Swiss like to be able to use a tailhook for some of their more secret landing locations. Bs would mean a change in doctrine (remember they've had the option to buy Harriers since the 60s, and never did).
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madrat

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Unread post23 Feb 2017, 23:54

The B would be more flexible, not less flexible, when it comes to operational issues. The B has a way to get down in a much shorter distance.
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jakobs

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Unread post24 Feb 2017, 02:38

They still keep using the F-5's more than one would think, so I would guess the Air Force will have a rather high ambition when it comes to the number of airframes it would like. Let's see what they can make possible with budget constraints etc.
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Unread post23 Mar 2018, 04:56

Swiss fighter buy to hinge on 2020 referendum
22 Mar 2018 Craig Hoyle

"Fighter manufacturers are eyeing an opportunity to replace the Swiss air force's entire fighter fleet, although the requirement will be the subject of a public vote planned for early 2020....

...Last November Bern then outlined an ambitious "Air 2030" programme to replace its F-5s, Boeing F/A-18C/Ds and ground-based air-defence systems during the next decade, with the activity valued at Swfr8 billion ($8.4 billion). Proceeding with such a sweeping modernisation activity would require approvals to increase its current defence spending levels by 1.4% per year.

Outlining its latest programme schedule, the nation's government says parliamentary debate will occur in 2019, before a public referendum to be conducted no later than "spring 2020". Selection of a new fighter is likely to occur by the end of the same year, it adds, with a contract signature likely in 2022 and deliveries anticipated between 2025 and 2030....

...Among the terms of its procurement plan, the Swiss government will seek an offset package worth at least 100% of the purchase price...."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... um-446986/
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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weasel1962

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Unread post23 Mar 2018, 07:39

Luckily the Swiss aren't that European. Look what happened to the now "former" German chief of airforce after he suggested the F-35.
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botsing

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Unread post23 Mar 2018, 20:12

weasel1962 wrote:Luckily the Swiss aren't that European. Look what happened to the now "former" German chief of airforce after he suggested the F-35.

Netherlands, Norway, Italy, Danmark and UK have all opted for the F-35.

Polarizing German internal politics as "European" is kinda odd.
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swiss

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Unread post23 Mar 2018, 21:32

botsing wrote:
weasel1962 wrote:Luckily the Swiss aren't that European. Look what happened to the now "former" German chief of airforce after he suggested the F-35.

Netherlands, Norway, Italy, Danmark and UK have all opted for the F-35.

Polarizing German internal politics as "European" is kinda odd.


Agreed.

Here some news about the swiss evaluation. 40 Jets. SAM system that can cover 15'000 km2 (5800 sqm). They choose between SAMP/T from Eurosam, David's Sling from Rafael, and Patriot from Raytheon. Fighter are still the same types for the evaluation. maximally 8 Billion Swiss francs. Don't know if this is enough money.

I don't like also, that we don't know which Jet the government will buy. They will chose the type after the referendum.

https://translate.google.ch/translate?s ... t=&act=url
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hythelday

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Unread post24 Mar 2018, 01:12

swiss wrote:
botsing wrote:
weasel1962 wrote:Luckily the Swiss aren't that European. Look what happened to the now "former" German chief of airforce after he suggested the F-35.

Netherlands, Norway, Italy, Danmark and UK have all opted for the F-35.

Polarizing German internal politics as "European" is kinda odd.


Agreed.

Here some news about the swiss evaluation. 40 Jets. SAM system that can cover 15'000 km2 (5800 sqm). They choose between SAMP/T from Eurosam, David's Sling from Rafael, and Patriot from Raytheon. Fighter are still the same types for the evaluation. maximally 8 Billion Swiss francs. Don't know if this is enough money.

I don't like also, that we don't know which Jet the government will buy. They will chose the type after the referendum.

https://translate.google.ch/translate?s ... t=&act=url


That seems like OK sum of money, 40 F-35s @ 90M dollars leaves about 4,9 billion for weapons, suppot, weapons, training etc... ample money. Unless the SAMs are in the same budget?


Only after the vote does the Federal Council decide which aircraft should be purchased. This is to avoid a public debate about possible shortcomings of the jet fighter - as four years ago when Gripen


Ouch.
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h-bomb

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Unread post24 Mar 2018, 07:12

swiss wrote:Agreed.

Here some news about the swiss evaluation. 40 Jets. SAM system that can cover 15'000 km2 (5800 sqm). They choose between SAMP/T from Eurosam, David's Sling from Rafael, and Patriot from Raytheon. Fighter are still the same types for the evaluation. maximally 8 Billion Swiss francs. Don't know if this is enough money.

I don't like also, that we don't know which Jet the government will buy. They will chose the type after the referendum.

https://translate.google.ch/translate?s ... t=&act=url


I love this article, apparently the Gripen E has 3 to 4 times the range of the rest of the competitors!
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Unread post24 Mar 2018, 13:02

hythelday wrote:
swiss wrote:
botsing wrote:
Here some news about the swiss evaluation. 40 Jets. SAM system that can cover 15'000 km2 (5800 sqm). They choose between SAMP/T from Eurosam, David's Sling from Rafael, and Patriot from Raytheon. Fighter are still the same types for the evaluation. maximally 8 Billion Swiss francs. Don't know if this is enough money.

I don't like also, that we don't know which Jet the government will buy. They will chose the type after the referendum.

https://translate.google.ch/translate?s ... t=&act=url


That seems like OK sum of money, 40 F-35s @ 90M dollars leaves about 4,9 billion for weapons, suppot, weapons, training etc... ample money. Unless the SAMs are in the same budget?

AFAIK the SAMs are included in the 8 billion Swiss Franc budget.

My guess would be that cost will be a main driver for the selection, as it was in the previous round. This will most likely mean that Rafale and Typhoon will not win this. Probably the F-35 will win, however the Gripen E should not be discounted completely.

It may seem improbable that Gripen E could win, however it did win the previous round. Perhaps the requirements will be different this time around, on the other hand, I think it was clear during the last round that Switzerland in the future will not operate two types of fighter jets -- thus, even if the previous deal was a replacement of F-5s only, ultimately Switzerland would have ended up replacing also the F-18 with Gripen E. Thus presumably the requirements for the previous round took this into account.

For sure the Swiss Army would prefer the F-35 (or Rafale) to the Gripen so perhaps they will try to make the requirements more stringent to reach this target.

Of course if the F-35 turns out to be as cheap as Gripen (not just to purchase, but also to operate) then it becomes a no-brainer. The costs of offsets and ToT will also influence the price. 100% offsets is a requirement.

More info here: https://www.newsd.admin.ch/newsd/messag ... /51786.pdf
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loke

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Unread post24 Mar 2018, 14:43

h-bomb wrote:
swiss wrote:Agreed.

Here some news about the swiss evaluation. 40 Jets. SAM system that can cover 15'000 km2 (5800 sqm). They choose between SAMP/T from Eurosam, David's Sling from Rafael, and Patriot from Raytheon. Fighter are still the same types for the evaluation. maximally 8 Billion Swiss francs. Don't know if this is enough money.

I don't like also, that we don't know which Jet the government will buy. They will chose the type after the referendum.

https://translate.google.ch/translate?s ... t=&act=url


I love this article, apparently the Gripen E has 3 to 4 times the range of the rest of the competitors!

They qouted ferry range for Gripen E and the Rafale (3,700 km) but not for the others it seems.
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swiss

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Unread post25 Mar 2018, 12:26



Thanks for the link loke.

loke wrote:
My guess would be that cost will be a main driver for the selection, as it was in the previous round. This will most likely mean that Rafale and Typhoon will not win this. Probably the F-35 will win, however the Gripen E should not be discounted completely.


Well it would be a effrontery after the result from the last evaluation and the referendum to choose the Gripen again. There is no doubt, in terms of skills, the F-35 is the only correct decision Period.

I watched the press conference about the Requirement for the new Fighters and SAM. ( Sadly only in german and a bit francais.)



Some interesting points i think:

-Its defenetly the F-35 A that the Swiss AF will invite to the evaluation.

-Its not absolutely necessary that swiss pilots fly the Jets through the evaluation. It could be also test pilots of the manufacturer. Because the simulators are so advanced, that the swiss pilots can comprehend every mission that is flown by the test pilotes. And for every Fighter they will spend 14 "test" days in the simulator.

-They will buy 30-40 Fighters. Depends how good end expensive the SAM is.

- A journalist ask why Switzerland don't try to buy a S400 like Turkey who is a Nato member. Every where the S400 stands the enemy has "the naked horror" from this system. Answer: It speaks not the same "Languages" then the Radars, guiding system and Fighters Switzerland has or will have. So the costs would be very expensive, to integrate the system. And even then its not sure if it will work 100%. And it would be curious, after decades of buying western systems, just know to buy a Russian system.
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magitsu

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Unread post25 Mar 2018, 14:18

swiss wrote:- A journalist ask why Switzerland don't try to buy a S400 like Turkey who is a Nato member. Every where the S400 stands the enemy has "the naked horror" from this system. Answer: It speaks not the same "Languages" then the Radars, guiding system and Fighters Switzerland has or will have. So the costs would be very expensive, to integrate the system. And even then its not sure if it will work 100%. And it would be curious, after decades of buying western systems, just know to buy a Russian system.

The S-400 threat is built up to sell stuff. Either the clicks for the media or to secure more money for own equipment.
But yes, you are right. It makes no sense to even consider buying mixed strategic systems, for which a lot of the benefits come from networking them to the whole defense system.

The Patriot system's exorbitant cost does make it necessary to have other options, at least rhetorical ones.
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Unread post25 Mar 2018, 19:13

loke wrote:
h-bomb wrote:
swiss wrote:Agreed.

Here some news about the swiss evaluation. 40 Jets. SAM system that can cover 15'000 km2 (5800 sqm). They choose between SAMP/T from Eurosam, David's Sling from Rafael, and Patriot from Raytheon. Fighter are still the same types for the evaluation. maximally 8 Billion Swiss francs. Don't know if this is enough money.

I don't like also, that we don't know which Jet the government will buy. They will chose the type after the referendum.

https://translate.google.ch/translate?s ... t=&act=url


I love this article, apparently the Gripen E has 3 to 4 times the range of the rest of the competitors!

They qouted ferry range for Gripen E and the Rafale (3,700 km) but not for the others it seems.

Wow! You're right.

The Gripen is has the published ferry range of 4,000 km.
The Rafale is listed at 3,700 km, which on wikipedia is the "range" (not ferry) listed with 3 drop tanks (no CFTs).
The Typhoon is the same as the Rafale, in that they took the "range" stat (2,900 km).
The Super Hornet stat is the "range" stat for "clean plus two AIM-9s".
The F-35 is the worst of the bunch. 1,092 km (590 nmi) is the threshold combat RADIUS (which the jet now exceeds)

So, the two extremes here are the Gripen an F-35.
Gripen is getting the published ferry range with 3 external tanks, while the F-35 is getting the minimum requirement threshold RADIUS while carrying 2x 2k JDAMs on an actual mission.
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Unread post25 Mar 2018, 19:31

Why list the "combat radius" of the F-35 but the "ferry range" of everything else?

Taking the longest published combat radius of the F-35 in A2A mode (760nm), that gives us over 2800kn ferry range. Take the AAMs out (600+ kg) and it should beg above 3000km.
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