DT-III aboard USS America

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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steve2267

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Unread post23 Nov 2016, 19:26

sferrin wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:Sadly the F-35B has been bashed with that 1,700 degree undefined 'wotisit' quote since 2010. I suspect but cannot prove it is the afterburner exhaust temperature for the A/C variants.


Unless that's °C I'd be surprised if it was that low. The F110-129 is around 2000°F with the F100-229 being 3200°F. Seems unlikely that the F135 would have cooler exhaust than the -229. (See attached doc. pages 49 & 51).


sferrin wrote:Well in the case I was commenting on you'd be looking for exhaust temps. on the pages I mentioned. They'd show the figures I gave. And since it was in response to a comment regarding full afterburner temps were talking apples and oranges.


Here is the attachment (again): R11 Segment 11.pdf

I found pp.49-51 of the attachment and created the following JPG of Military thrust exhaust temperatues below for comparison.

Exhaust temperatures immediately behind the engine:
  • F110-GE-100/129 - 900°F Mil (2000°F A/B)
  • F100-PW-200/220 - 800°FMil (3000°F A/B)
  • F100-PW-229 - 1000°FMil (3200°F A/B)

Again, with a stated reduction in exhaust temperature of around 300°F due to low-pressure turbine power extraction for liftfan operation, and with a bypass ratio stated as 0.57, it seems reasonable that the exhaust temperature of the F-135 in full military thrust is on the order of 800°F, so in STOVL mode, the main engine exhaust is around 500°F which is consistent with the video spaz posted and which I re-referenced.

I included the exhaust temperatures of the F-16 engines in full reheat above because that seems to be what "sferrin" is referring, but I don't understand the relevance of discussing A/B temperatures since the F-135 does not operate with reheat in STOVL (mode four) operation.

F-16_engine_exhaust_comparison.jpg
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post23 Nov 2016, 19:37

I'll look for a better example: F-35B Finger Four Formation: http://cdn.defenseone.com/media/img/upl ... -large.jpg
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DT-IIIfingerFourF-35Bs20nov2016.jpg
DT-IIIfingerFourF-35Bs20nov2016pdf.jpg
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Unread post23 Nov 2016, 20:16

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5504/308 ... f5_o_d.jpg (3.8Mb) 13 Nov 2016 INTERESTING COMMs setup?

With some 'assymetry' at DUSK: https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5469/308 ... 34_o_d.jpg (4.7Mb) 13 Nov 2016
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DT-III USS America LSOsPDFsmall.jpg
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RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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sferrin

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Unread post24 Nov 2016, 00:27

steve2267 wrote:I included the exhaust temperatures of the F-16 engines in full reheat above because that seems to be what "sferrin" is referring, but I don't understand the relevance of discussing A/B temperatures since the F-135 does not operate with reheat in STOVL (mode four) operation.


Jesus, this isn't rocket science. Somebody posited that the 1700 degree figure might be the F135 in afterburner. I was simply giving evidence that that was likely not the case. :bang:

"
spazsinbad wrote:Sadly the F-35B has been bashed with that 1,700 degree undefined 'wotisit' quote since 2010. I suspect but cannot prove it is the afterburner exhaust temperature for the A/C variants. . .
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Unread post24 Nov 2016, 01:29

sferrin wrote:
steve2267 wrote:I included the exhaust temperatures of the F-16 engines in full reheat above because that seems to be what "sferrin" is referring, but I don't understand the relevance of discussing A/B temperatures since the F-135 does not operate with reheat in STOVL (mode four) operation.


Jesus, this isn't rocket science. Somebody posited that the 1700 degree figure might be the F135 in afterburner. I was simply giving evidence that that was likely not the case. :bang:

Actually, it is! :mrgreen:

What the engineers on the F-35 program are accomplishing is very much (very closely related to) rocket science.
spazsinbad wrote:Sadly the F-35B has been bashed with that 1,700 degree undefined 'wotisit' quote since 2010. I suspect but cannot prove it is the afterburner exhaust temperature for the A/C variants. . .


Actually, I strongly suspect that 1700°F may very well be the F-135 exhaust temperature in full reheat. Why? Several reasons:
  1. The F-100 afterburner exhaust is on the order of 3000°F with a bypass ratio of 0.36. The GE F-110, approximately a generation newer than the F-100, was on the order of 2000°F with a bypass ratio of 0.76. The F-135 is a generation or two newer than the F-110 with a bypass ratio of 0.57. Afterburner temperatures have been trending lower, and bypass ratio generally up from the F-100.
  2. People unfamiliar with the dual-cycle property of the F-135 engine seem to think that since the F-135 is producting nearly as much thrust in STOVL mode as it is in full reheat mode during conventional operation, it must be using the afterburner during STOVL operation. I strongly suspect somewhere along the way, someone found the F-135 afterburner listed at 1700°F and equated that with STOVL operation. I have no proof, just a strong hunch.
  3. In The F-35's Race Against Time by John A. Tirpak, pp.52-55, Air Force Magazine, Dec 2012, Lockheed Martin Vice President Stephen O’Bryan states (p. 54),
    ...while other secret techniques have been employed to combat and minimize the engine heat signature.

    “We had to deal with that, and we dealt with that,” O’Bryan said, declining to offer details.

    The F-35 meets or exceeds the services’ infrared signature specifications...

    Courtesy spaz: The F-35’s Race Against Time Nov2012pp7.pdf
    Found a PDF with pretty pictures:
  4. Recent threads regarding ADVENT / AEDT / AEDP engine programs discuss possible uses for a third stream of air, a "second bypass stream," including additional thrust by diverting that flow into the afterburner, or additional cooling. I posit that P&W has used at least a portion of the bypass stream of the "high bypass" F-135 for cooling in the engine nozzle, and that a 300°F reduction from the F-110 afterburner temperature is entirely possible, and probably probable given O'Bryan's statements about dealing with heat signature minimization.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post24 Nov 2016, 02:19

One of the Engyn Threads: viewtopic.php?f=56&t=25691 :mrgreen: GOOD OLE BOY 'popcorn' :mrgreen: found a great LiftFan exhaust temperature quote on page 2 of this thread here: viewtopic.php?f=56&t=25691&p=277314&hilit=Boeing#p277314
Winner Take All
"All the nail biting, second guessing, & sheer engineering brilliance in the battle to build the better Joint Strike Fighter."
Jan 2003 Evan Hadingham; Air & Space Magazine [OMG and all the great aviation journalists NEVER KNEW!] :devil:

"...As with the Harrier, the 1,350-degree heat of the Boeing airplane’s exhaust gases would pose a threat to the surface of carrier decks, if not to the life and limb of Navy crews (the downdraft from Lockheed’s lift fan was some 1,000 degrees cooler). Since Lockheed’s fan boosted engine thrust, its powerplant could run at lower temperature and with less strain, and these differences would translate into longer life. Most significant, assuming its reliability could be ensured, the lift fan would offer an extra margin of power and safety in a hover. In the end, that ensured Lockheed’s victory...."

Source: http://www.airspacemag.com/military-avi ... 86459/?all
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post24 Nov 2016, 03:05

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F135afterburnerTestRig.jpg
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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sferrin

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Unread post24 Nov 2016, 03:31

steve2267 wrote:Actually, I strongly suspect that 1700°F may very well be the F-135 exhaust temperature in full reheat. Why? Several reasons:
[list=1]
[*] The F-100 afterburner exhaust is on the order of 3000°F with a bypass ratio of 0.36. The GE F-110, approximately a generation newer than the F-100, was on the order of 2000°F with a bypass ratio of 0.76. The F-135 is a generation or two newer than the F-110 with a bypass ratio of 0.57. Afterburner temperatures have been trending lower, and bypass ratio generally up from the F-100.


Uh, no. Compare the -220 and the -229. Night and day (with the much hotter -229 being the more advanced of the two). And engines don't burn cooler the more advanced they are, quite the opposite. The disparity between the -129 and -229 is because GE chose to move more air slower while the -229 moves less air faster. One isn't necessarily "more advanced" than the other.
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Unread post24 Nov 2016, 03:39

A couple of my favorites:

sdd_f35testa_001.jpg


sdd_f35testb_003.jpg
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Unread post24 Nov 2016, 03:56

sferrin wrote:
steve2267 wrote:Actually, I strongly suspect that 1700°F may very well be the F-135 exhaust temperature in full reheat. Why? Several reasons:
[list=1]
[*] The F-100 afterburner exhaust is on the order of 3000°F with a bypass ratio of 0.36. The GE F-110, approximately a generation newer than the F-100, was on the order of 2000°F with a bypass ratio of 0.76. The F-135 is a generation or two newer than the F-110 with a bypass ratio of 0.57. Afterburner temperatures have been trending lower, and bypass ratio generally up from the F-100.


Uh, no. Compare the -220 and the -229. Night and day (with the much hotter -229 being the more advanced of the two). And engines don't burn cooler the more advanced they are, quite the opposite. The disparity between the -129 and -229 is because GE chose to move more air slower while the -229 moves less air faster. One isn't necessarily "more advanced" than the other.


You are correct. Perhaps I did not articulate my thoughts very well. Yes, the hotter you can make the combustors / turbine inlet temperature, the more power you can extract, the more efficient you can make the thermal cycle.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post24 Nov 2016, 09:05

F-35B Completes Weapons Load Testing at Sea
28 Nov 2016 Air Force Magazine

"​The vertical takeoff [WUT!? USAF HUH] version of the F-35 hit a major milestone in November, finishing weapons load testing at sea. An F-35B aboard the USS America went through “an aggressive test plan,” including shipboard launch and recovery expansion test points focused on different aircraft weights in flight, according to a Navy release. A weapons team conducted load tests on the F-35B on land, and then tested all takeoff and landing worst-case scenarios, the release states. Pilots conducted test flights in “unfavorable environmental conditions” to put the strike fighter through its paces. “We can't choose the battle and the location of the battle, so sometimes we have to go into rough seas with heavy swells, heave, roll, pitch, and crosswinds,” test pilot RAF Squadron Leader Andy Edgell, an F-35 test pilot embedded at the Pax River Integrated Test Force, said in the release. The test is a step toward F-35 crews getting clearance to carry weapons with rough seas and rough conditions. “We know the jet can handle it,” Edgell said."

PHOTO: "​Sailors prepare to equip an F-35B with inert 500-pound GBU-12 Paveway II laser-guided test bombs during flight operations aboard the USS America. Navy photo by Petty Officer 3rd Class Kyle Goldberg." http://www.airforcemag.com/DRArchive/Pu ... 8-0208.JPG (1.2Mb)


Source: http://www.airforcemag.com/DRArchive/Pa ... t-Sea.aspx
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Unread post24 Nov 2016, 09:58

It goes straight up in the air, then flies away and kills stuff. The Air Force TOOOOHLD ME!!!!
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Unread post24 Nov 2016, 16:05

Over on previous page 'steve2267' posted an LM Utube video - it is available here also (and can be downloaded with YTD)

https://www.facebook.com/NAVAIR/videos/ ... 751521016/ (6Mb .MP4 Video from LM)

I like the air guitar guys. They work hard for the money....

https://www.facebook.com/USSAmerica/pho ... =3&theater

AND... As Of 21 Nov 2016 the claim is that USS America is F-35B CERTIFIED along with this photo below:

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t3 ... 2704_o.jpg (0.5Mb)
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Unread post24 Nov 2016, 17:48

Sobering to think that USS America in this config out ranges USS Nimitz! :devil:
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Unread post24 Nov 2016, 19:15

Since we are talking Block 3F (ie external stores), it would have been nice to see the gun pod at sea. :(
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