F-35 versus Typhoon

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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jessmo111

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Unread post24 Sep 2016, 11:17

The RAF’s Typhoons and French Air Force Rafales training alongside the U.S. Air Force’s Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptors at Joint Base Langley-Richardson, Virginia, to learn how to better coordinate fourth and fifth-generation fighters. While the Raptor is essentially a dedicated air superiority fighter, the F-22 and F-35 are similar in many ways. Thus, many of the lessons learned can be carried over to joint F-35/Typhoon operations.

While the Typhoon and the F-35 won’t be competing with each other directly in the British service, the manufacturers are nonetheless engaged in a dogfight to secure sales. In that arena, the Typhoon—despite its superior aerodynamic performance—is slowly being edged out by the stealthy F-35. If the current trend holds, the F-35 might end up being the only Western fighter left on the market.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-bu ... nate-15535
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jessmo111

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Unread post24 Sep 2016, 11:19

T-dog Arm chair general extraordinaire says :





TDog > ArmChairGeneral • 6 months ago





"The author likely meant it that way, but the F-35 currently has a whole host of problems that aren't getting fixed anytime soon. The technical problems are well-known and are actually the least of anyone's problems. Don't get me wrong, having ALIS lock technicians out of the system or having to restart the radar in flight when it goes on the blink are pretty bad, but the systemic problems that the F-35 will engender are far more dangerous.

For example, the F-35 is more expensive to fly than other planes. Its stealth coating needs to be refurbished after so many flight hours and its various systems need more thorough maintenance than other designs. The end result is that these planes spend more time on the ground than other ones would, meaning we either have to buy more planes (unlikely) or allow our pilots less flight time. I know some folks will claim simulators can make up for the shortfall, but video games, no matter how sophisticated, can not replace the real thing.

Furthermore, due to the expanded cost of the entire program, the likelihood of replacing legacy aircraft with inferior numbers of F-35's is quite high. Already it's been proposed that to save money, for every 10 legacy aircraft retired, only 8 F-35's would step in to fill the void. Regardless of what its proponents say, less is less. A US Air Force twenty percent smaller would be harder pressed to fill the same missions it is performing today.

And those are just two items. Suffice to say the jack of all trades model isn't the best because while it may do all jobs well, it will do none of them great no matter what the ad copy says. We will find ourselves saddled with a compromise plane whose only shining achievement was to make sure the entirety of our air power went from varied, flexible, and effective to "good enough."
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mk82

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Unread post24 Sep 2016, 13:20

Jessmo111....please put that steaming pile of a comment into the basement dweller thread where it bloody belongs. Parroting falsities and stupidity doesn't make it true.
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mixelflick

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Unread post24 Sep 2016, 16:20

Typhoon will wind up like every other 4th/4+/4++ fighter - dead.

Even with the most basic of its capabilities, details are starting to leak out about how effective it is in exercises. Completely evading/downing F-15E Strike Eagles comes to mind. They're some of the most sensor rich platforms in the USAF...

The U.K. though, is in a unique situation: They'll be flying both Typhoon and the F-35. I gather they'll be using the Typhoon for air- to air work, with the F-35 for air to ground. Once the Typhoon runs into PAK-FA type aircraft, I think you're going to see their F-35's devoted to air to air like, real quick
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les_paul59

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Unread post24 Sep 2016, 17:40

jessmo, the typhoon would have been a brilliant aircraft if it had been operational in the early 1990's....It's kinematics are exceptional with only the raptor and pak fa being more suited to the high altitude interceptor role.

But unfortunately it launched around the same time as the raptor, which is light years ahead of the typhoon in almost every way.....still waiting on that typhoon aesa tho lol
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blindpilot

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Unread post24 Sep 2016, 18:18

@Jessmo111
jessmo111 wrote:
"... the F-35 currently has a whole host of problems that aren't getting fixed anytime soon.

False and a misleading assertion. Development is development and is proceeding (making fixes) as well or better than many other fighter programs historically.
The technical problems are well-known

Actually internet trolls only think they know anything because of the ubiquitous availability of wild opinions on the web. If they haven't been there, done that, they are just continually repeating the garbage by the last 14 year old in his mom's basement. The counter arguments are from actual AF combat fighter pilots and design engineers and fleet maintenance personnel, many with years and thousands of hours experience in numerous fighter types and 5th Gen/F-35 hands on. who know something about what is being said. What part of that don't you get?
...having ALIS lock technicians out of the system
ALIS is actually working pretty good and improving its value every day with the IOC squadrons.
or having to restart the radar in flight when it goes on the blink are pretty bad,
A. It was never "pretty bad." Other fighters have flown operationally with worse issues... but B. that has been fixed in timely matter with each block where it show'd up. If you actually knew any thing about software ... well next point ..
but the systemic problems that the F-35 will engender are far more dangerous... more expensive to fly ... stealth coating needs .... systems need more thorough maintenance. The end result is that these planes spend more time on the ground than other ones would,
actually sortie availability is meeting, or exceeding expected rates for this early in the program.
meaning ... buy more planes ... inferior numbers ...for every 10 legacy aircraft retired, only 8 F-35's would step in to fill the void.
Again you have no clue what it takes to put together a package for a mission. When 4 F-35s can do the same thing a 17 aircraft package used to do, and which 100 4th gen aircraft can't even do without dying, .. 10 to 8 actually increases capability, even if the formula was correct which it isn't. It's a ratio you pulled out of your ...funny math place
And those are just two items. Suffice to say

Actually you probably had a dozen or more factual errors in your "two points" Suffice it to say, you are just throwing out stuff you read somewhere, and one wonders if you have ever been near an aircraft or program before.

mk82 wrote:Jessmo111....please put that steaming pile of a comment into the basement dweller thread where it bloody belongs. Parroting falsities and stupidity doesn't make it true.


What he said ...

MHO
BP

PS Why don't you run over to Dragon's thread viewtopic.php?f=22&t=27248 and try to get your feet on the ground a bit. He just released a new video. Which as always is pretty good.
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jessmo111

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Unread post24 Sep 2016, 20:51

Calm down, Im just posting a quote.
I would date an F-35 if it had the right parts some im probaly a bigger fan than you.
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popcorn

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Unread post24 Sep 2016, 21:04

There are valid discussions to be had re Typhoon and F-35 but some quality control would be nice. That quote belongs in the basement.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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XanderCrews

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Unread post25 Sep 2016, 23:13

I just wonder why we are posting comments that are not only months old but utterly unoriginal to boot.

I remember reading that same thing names changed in 2000 with the super hornet
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hornetfinn

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Unread post26 Sep 2016, 13:07

I think there is not many real competitions left where Typhoon (or Rafale or Super Hornet) would be a serious contender. Only if F-35 is not available, will other options be really interesting. IMO, more interesting is how to improve interoperability with each other as these jets will be used side-by-side for at least couple of decades. I think most important are AESA for much improved sensor capability and also CFTs to maximize the range/endurance/payload. Of course upgrades to all systems and especially networking are important.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post26 Sep 2016, 19:09

Keep in mind that ME customers are precluded from the F-35 for the most part due to the whole Israel must maintain superiority by law thing.
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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hornetfinn

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Unread post27 Sep 2016, 06:46

SpudmanWP wrote:Keep in mind that ME customers are precluded from the F-35 for the most part due to the whole Israel must maintain superiority by law thing.


True, but then there will not be any competition with F-35. If we consider the two meeting in combat, then it will go very badly for the Typhoon. Typhoon has met F-22 in combat and Typhoon pilots say that they were never able to get within 20 miles before being targeted even if they did everything right. It will be as bad or possibly worse against F-35s due to F-35s equal or better stealth, more numerous sensors, more advanced sensor fusion, even better networking and especially the likely much higher numbers. Eurofighter Typhoon is a great jet, but hopelessly outclassed against F-35, just like all earlier generation fighters are.
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charlielima223

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Unread post27 Sep 2016, 09:34

hornetfinn wrote:
True, but then there will not be any competition with F-35. If we consider the two meeting in combat, then it will go very badly for the Typhoon. Typhoon has met F-22 in combat and Typhoon pilots say that they were never able to get within 20 miles before being targeted even if they did everything right. It will be as bad or possibly worse against F-35s due to F-35s equal or better stealth, more numerous sensors, more advanced sensor fusion, even better networking and especially the likely much higher numbers. Eurofighter Typhoon is a great jet, but hopelessly outclassed against F-35, just like all earlier generation fighters are.


This is where that fundamental shift comes in that so many idiots on the interwebs cannot mentally and emotionally comprehend. It would be like having an army equipped with only bolt action rifles go up against another army equipped with assault rifles and squad automatics. It just won't end well. Stealth, integrated avionics/sensor fusion, and networking has/is changing how air combat are/will be fought. You can have the best WVR dog fighter in the world but if you can't even get there; what is the point?

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Unread post02 Oct 2016, 08:13

hornetfinn wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:Keep in mind that ME customers are precluded from the F-35 for the most part due to the whole Israel must maintain superiority by law thing.


True, but then there will not be any competition with F-35. If we consider the two meeting in combat, then it will go very badly for the Typhoon. Typhoon has met F-22 in combat and Typhoon pilots say that they were never able to get within 20 miles before being targeted even if they did everything right. It will be as bad or possibly worse against F-35s due to F-35s equal or better stealth, more numerous sensors, more advanced sensor fusion, even better networking and especially the likely much higher numbers. Eurofighter Typhoon is a great jet, but hopelessly outclassed against F-35, just like all earlier generation fighters are.



Not really: typhoon pilots says that in 2006 at langley in 1 vs 1 scenario they constantly detect f22 at 40km, up to 80km; this is a 1vs 1 scenario with old captor;that translates in a real world rcs of not less then 0,016, that is still very very low; in a 2 vs 2 scenario detection ranges are obviously much more consistent; new e-caesar projectist says that is phisically impossible that new aesa gonna detect f35 any shorter then 72km, that translates in much more in real worl...But obviosuly we are speaking about best mechanical radar in air to airt an best aesa ....( 8-10% more range then apg 77 and 200 degrees repositioning capability)...You should also remember thta european missiles are more advanced: iris-t is certified to destroy even small angd more agile wvr missiles, and it is more a defensive weapon on typhoon then an offensive one. In recent trilateral f22 pilots simply admitted to be astonished by typhoon agility in supersonic regime...Official declaration...May be you dont kknow that sustainedd turn rate in supersonic regime is better for typhoon the f22... (g6,4 at mach 1,6)
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basher54321

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Unread post02 Oct 2016, 11:33

franciwzm wrote:
Not really: typhoon pilots says that in 2006 at langley in 1 vs 1 scenario they constantly detect f22 at 40km, up to 80km; this is a 1vs 1 scenario with old captor;


Which pilots? what source?
What was the F-22 config? - 2 x drop tanks and a Luneburg lens?

franciwzm wrote:Official declaration...May be you dont kknow that sustainedd turn rate in supersonic regime is better for typhoon the f22... (g6,4 at mach 1,6)


According to who? please provide the source.
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