F-35 - The Italian Perspective

Program progress, politics, orders, and speculation
  • Author
  • Message
Offline
User avatar

popcorn

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 7684
  • Joined: 24 Sep 2008, 08:55

Unread post20 Nov 2013, 01:50

The CoS of the Italian Air Force explains how they intend to be eagles and not chickens.

Source: http://www.sldinfo.com/a-21st-century-a ... -the-f-35/

“This is an information warfare airplane which can share data across a fleet of global players. The reach of the F-35 means that my planes operating in the Western Mediterranean can receive data from throughout the region. And it is a plane with coalition designed into the aircraft.”

The plane is an information warfare aircraft, or an aircraft built to operate very differently from legacy aircraft... “Command and control capabilities are built into every cockpit of the F-35; the challenge will be to leverage those capabilities and the distributed decision making capabilities inherent in a fleet of F-35s.”

He underscored that a strategic shift towards pockets of defense and security challenges around the European, African, Mediterranean and Middle East regions meant that Europe, the United States and others needed to shape collaborative approaches to insert airpower when appropriate rapidly.

And the F-35 as a key distributed force asset was the right match for meeting distributed challenges...

“The fusion system built into every cockpit will allow shared coalition decision making that is required for the kinds of multi-national operations which are becoming the norm. We are not fighting in mass; we are applying tools rapidly and directly to discrete problems and challenges.”..

The first issue is the question of why the Italian Air Force was mixing its fleet between As and Bs.

“We studied the issue carefully and for the kind of missions we face we needed the flexibility which the B can add to the fleet. We need to go to the mission not the airfield. We will operate in many areas where there are only short runways; the B allows us to operate in those conditions.

We can mix the fleet and operate at sea on land, on our own ships or own others. It is the kind of flexibility, which we see as crucial to a 21st century setting.

I will give you an example of what we don’t want. We planned to operate with the USMC in Afghanistan. But we were three months later in the deployment than we intended because our Tornados could not operate in the same conditions as the USMC. We had to take three months to build out the air base from which we would operate with them.

Time is crucial to many of the missions in which we will be engaged. The Bs give me a more rapid insertion aircraft.”

"... Shaping combinations of 4th generation with the F-35s will be a mix and match opportunity in tailoring airpower to the missions ahead.

This is a challenge; but it is a key task within which the F-35s will make the legacy aircraft more effective; and the 4th generation aircraft will add support and strike capabilities to an F-35 enabled air power force.”

"... He concluded by emphasizing that the line between those countries that operate in the fifth generation and those that don’t will be more than just a line in the sand.

It will first of all be about survival. Do you want to be the Eagle or the Chicken in an airpower confrontation?
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
Offline
User avatar

XanderCrews

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 5905
  • Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 19:42

Unread post20 Nov 2013, 19:05

popcorn wrote:
I will give you an example of what we don’t want. We planned to operate with the USMC in Afghanistan. But we were three months later in the deployment than we intended because our Tornados could not operate in the same conditions as the USMC. We had to take three months to build out the air base from which we would operate with them.

Time is crucial to many of the missions in which we will be engaged. The Bs give me a more rapid insertion aircraft.”


Another tidbit to remember when douches start breaking out the "we never use STOVL in combat" garbage
Choose Crews
Offline

sprstdlyscottsmn

Elite 4K

Elite 4K

  • Posts: 4242
  • Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 01:24
  • Location: Phoenix, Az

Unread post20 Nov 2013, 19:40

the near limitless basing possibilities (land or ship based) alone make the B worth a look.
"Spurts"

-Pilot
-Aerospace Engineer
-Army Medic
-FMS Systems Engineer
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 22977
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post09 Feb 2014, 21:57

Italian Parliament complaining again but anyway....

Italian Lawmakers Consider New Cuts to JSF Purchase 09 Feb 2014 TOM KINGTON
"ROME — Eight months after the Italian parliament suspended new orders of the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), members of the country’s biggest political party may try to halve the total purchase.

A source within the center-left Democratic Party said the members were preparing a policy document for approval in parliament which could seek to cut Italy’s planned purchase of JSFs from 90 to around 45. The country has already reduced its total buy from the originally planned 131 aircraft.

But a second source said that debate inside the party is still continuing, and that the final document may merely threaten a cut if Italy does not obtain better conditions on the U.S.-led program....

...Assembly work on Italy’s JSFs at the country’s Final Assembly and Check Out line at Cameri airbase in northern Italy has meanwhile proceeded according to schedule since kicking off last July, said Debra Palmer, Lockheed Martin’s vice president and general manager for the FACO.

An Italian defense source said Italian officials are proceeding with the procurement of 14 aircraft which were covered by full or initial industrial agreements signed before the vote last June. Three of the aircraft come from Low Rate Initial Production batch 6, three from LRIP 7, four for LRIP 8 and four from LRIP 9, including one F-35B jump-jet variant. The defense source said that even if just long-lead items had been ordered for aircraft before the vote, the ministry felt justified in pushing ahead with their full procurement.

Palmer said that Lockheed Martin now had work “locked in” from Italy to deliver three LRIP 6 jets to Italy as well as three LRIP 7 jets and two from LRIP 8, all of the F-35A conventional take off and landing model.

The components of the first aircraft, known as AL-1, are now emerging from the Electronic Mate and Alignment system, one of four at the base, which is run jointly by Alenia and Lockheed Martin and bankrolled by the Italian government.

Engine and electronics testing, including checks on the aircraft’s low observation signature, will begin shortly, with first flights and delivery in 2015, said Palmer.

Work on the second aircraft to be assembled started in November, with the third to start in March and the fourth in July. “All major components have arrived for AL-3 and some for AL-4 are arriving now,” said Palmer.

Alenia Aermacchi is meanwhile stepping up its work on JSF wings at Cameri, with the first two full wing sets destined for US F-35s now in production.

With Italy dropping from 131 aircraft to 90, and The Netherlands— which has agreed to assemble its jets at Cameri — ordering 37 jets instead of the planned 85, Palmer said Cameri “will not have the rate of production originally planned,” but suggested the Dutch order could yet rise. “When they ordered F-16s, they did it in tranches, and we think they could do that again.”

She said other European countries could yet be drawn to Cameri due to the savings from not having to fly new operational aircraft across the Atlantic flanked by tankers and support aircraft.

“The purchase price of the aircraft from Lockheed Martin will be the same regardless of the assembly location,” she said."

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2014 ... 01/DEFSECT
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
Offline

Corsair1963

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 5485
  • Joined: 19 Dec 2005, 04:14

Unread post10 Feb 2014, 06:42

Just politics fueled by bad press..........(unfortunately) Nonetheless, I don't see Italy making any cuts let alone drastic ones like is described in the article. Because Italy has invested so much in the JSF Program.


Yet, if it doesn't want its F-35 Production Line and Maintenance Hub. I am sure Japan or even South Korea would be happy to step in....... :wink:
Offline

glendora

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

  • Posts: 30
  • Joined: 03 Dec 2012, 18:27

Unread post10 Feb 2014, 13:02

It’s hard to tell what is going to happen here in Italy in the future.
The Defense News article depicts quite accurately the situation.

Just another quote from the above article:

Called to speak in September (in front of the Defense Commissione of the aprliament, my note), Finmeccanica CEO Alessandro Pansa appeared underwhelmed by the firm’s work on the JSF program. “Finmeccanica will not build its future as an operator of avant-garde technology by supplying parts of large aircraft,” he said.


I watched the auditions of Pansa and eventually, yes he was quite underwhelmed with the F-35, and showed much more enthusiasm for the Typhoon.
Apparently he also passed to the Commission a document which states that the manufacturing of the wings at Cameri would be lossmaking. And this, with no certainty of future maintenance work at Cameri, could have been of some impact.
Most of the public opinion here, not only the center-left electors, but also the center-right. is against the program.

On the other hand, as stated also by Defense News whit its "two sources", there are also many political supporters of the program, including the President of the Republic.
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 22977
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post14 Mar 2014, 08:06

Italy prepared to cut major defence projects - minister 12 Mar 2014 Steve Scherer
"ROME.... (Reuters) - Italy will review its military needs and not hesitate to cut spending on unnecessary big projects, new defence minister Roberta Pinotti said on Wednesday, an announcement that will put the spotlight on its order for F-35 jets....

...The government is now committed to buy 90 of the warplanes for about 10 billion euros ($14 billion), but there is broad political support for further cuts to the programme....

...In her first appearance before parliament since being sworn in last month, Pinotti did not mention the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, which has been dogged by technical problems. But she did not rule out further spending cuts.

"The government will not hesitate to review, reduce or rethink even large projects that are under way or being considered if economic or international situations show them to be inopportune," she said in testimony to the joint Senate and Chamber defence committees.

Before any spending decisions were made, the minister said she would lead a review of military needs, without saying how long it would take...."

SOURCE: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/ ... UP20140312
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
Offline

weasel1962

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1577
  • Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 02:41
  • Location: Singapore
  • Warnings: 1

Unread post14 Mar 2014, 09:37

Italy was supposed to order 25 typhoons in tranche 3B. Germany has already decided not participate. UK has weasel-ed out of their share leaving only Italy & Spain. Whilst some Italians might favor the typhoon over the F-35, their cost from a smaller 3B order should go up enough to make a "cut" worth considering.
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 22977
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post15 Mar 2014, 20:31

Italian president: parliament not authorised to cut F-35 project 14 Mar 2014

"After debate in the Italian Parliament and press about possible new cuts in the F-35 fleet, president Giorgio Napolitana reacted with a very surprising coup to defend the F-35.

Since some months there are persistent rumors about further cutting of the purchase of the troubled F-35 combat jet, the so called “Plan Renzi” to recover the financial situation of the Italian Government after the Euro-crisis. The top of the Italian MoD, the Italian and US industry are becoming very nervous about the “Plan Renzi”, because it proposes to cut the F-35 fleet from the current 90 to 45 only (original planning 131) for the benefit of the alternative program Eurofighter.

Today the 88-year old president Giorgio Napolitno ordered the Supreme Defence Council putting on the agenda that the Parliament has no power to control the costs of defence, because it is “critical for the implementation of Law 244”. In other words: it is forbidden for the Parliament to cut (certain) defence projects, only the Government is in control of that. By doing this a serious institutional clash may be looming, because the preparation of the parliamentary Financial Committee of Matteo Renzi is in a final stage...."

SOURCE: http://www.jsfnieuws.nl/?p=1078 [/quote]
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 22977
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post19 Mar 2014, 23:14

Italy's F-35 jet orders should be frozen, cut: Renzi party document 19 Mar 2014 Steve Scherer & Antonella Cinelli

"(Reuters) - Italy should put its order for 90 Lockheed Martin (LMT.N) F-35 fighter jets on hold and probably cut it "significantly", lawmakers in Prime Minister Matteo Renzi's Democratic Party (PD) say, according to a party document.

The government has committed to spending an estimated 12 billion euros for the 90 radar-evading planes, but Renzi, who announced 10 billion euros ($13.91 billion) in income tax cuts last week, said on Sunday the order would be "revised" as he seeks to reduce public spending.

A PD party paper seen by Reuters, which was distributed to PD lawmakers on Wednesday by PD defense committee member Gian Piero Scanu, says that the contracts should be frozen and that "significant" cuts are probably needed.

The paper argues that the F-35 guaranteed Italy "no significant industrial gains" and that its cost "cannot co-exist with the needs of our public finances."..."

SOURCE: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/ ... V920140319
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
Offline

glendora

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

  • Posts: 30
  • Joined: 03 Dec 2012, 18:27

Unread post20 Mar 2014, 15:20

An extensive post on Gabriele's blog about the recent complex situation in Italy about the acquisition of the F-35s:
Italy and the F-35: what is actually happening?
http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot.it/2014/03/italy-and-f-35-what-is-actually.html

Some very intersting highlights are included.
Press in Italy and abroad has gone into a frenzy over the news that Italy "will further cut its F-35 order, even halving it". But reality is a bit different.
Big cuts might be coming. Or might not.
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 22977
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post19 Jun 2015, 12:11

An Update on Italian F-35s
19 Jun 2015 Rivista Italiana Difesa via SLDinfo

"2015-06-19 Our partner, Rivista Italiana Difesa, recently provided an update on the F-35s for Italy.

At the Le Bourget Air Show, RID had the opportunity to obtain some exclusive information.

Lockheed Martin is negotiating 150 F-35s with the US Department of Defense, and this order constitutes both LRIP (Low Rate Initial Production) 9 and 10.

The company expects to sign this contract by the end of the year.

Within LRIP 9 and 10, there would be six aircraft for the Italian Air Force and Navy: 2 within LRIP 9 (an F-35A and an F-35B) and four in LRIP 10 (2 F-35As and 2 F-35Bs)

The Italian FACO at Cameri will deliver one plane this year, and one each in 2016 and 2017 with 3 delivered in 2018 followed by 5 in 2019 and 5 in 2020."

Source: http://www.sldinfo.com/an-update-on-italian-f-35s/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 22977
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post02 Jun 2016, 14:52

Room for New Italian Defense Programs Despite Spending Dip in 2016
01 Jun 2016 Tom Kington

"Italy’s defense procurement spending in 2016 is set to drop 3 percent to €4.72 billion, new budget documents reveal, although cash was found to launch a new jet trainer program and partner with France on a new missile program.

The dip, due to belt tightening as Italy struggles to escape recession, may alarm military officials, given the instability currently seen in North Africa and the renewed threat from Russia.

The spending trend, which looks set to continue for the next two years, runs contrary to a Europe-wide hike in defense spending currently underway.

Procurement funding for this year combines €2.18 billion from the Defense Ministry and a €2.54 billion top-up from the Industry Ministry, a decline on the €4.87 billion total made available last year, although the Defense Ministry funding is above the €1.95 billion initially forecast for 2016 in a provisional budget document released in December.

The latest document, which was sent to the Italian Parliament and seen by Defense News, is a three year budget covering 2016-2018, as is customary, which indicates that Defense Ministry procurement funding is expected to drop to €1.93 billion next year and in 2018....

...Italy’s ongoing purchase of F-35s is funded to the tune of €630 million. Following parliamentary votes in 2014 demanding a reduction in spending on the program, the document claims that €1 billion will be trimmed off spending between 2016 and 2019, and that spending last year was cut from €583 million to €370 million.

No explanation of where the cuts are being made is given, so it is not clear if the savings are related to Italy’s provisional decision to cut its F-35 order from 131 to 90 aircraft...."

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /85265076/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
Offline

nutshell

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 458
  • Joined: 04 May 2016, 13:37

Unread post03 Jun 2016, 05:33

We're in trouble, that's not a surprise.

There's literally a sh*t storm rampaging right now because of the welfare system collapsing.

As in: i will never be able to get my retirement even if i could survive the fatigue of working at the age of 70.

But, anyway, i HIGHLY doubt Finmeccanica CEO is pushing for more Typhoons when Cameri has the potential of a big, BIG gold mine. He also predicted that by 2019, F35A produced here will cost around 65M euro, which makes the plane much more affordable then the Typhoon that are rotting because we simply don't have a use for it.

But ehy, everything is possible, and for sure the F35 is at much more risk then our politicians' immunities, massive wadges and general benefits.
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 22977
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post01 Oct 2016, 18:00

Check out the posts in this thread for 'pond crossing': viewtopic.php?f=57&t=28948&p=343524&hilit=Niccoli#p343524
Italian air force struggles to prove air power relevance
30 Sep 2016 Beth Stevenson

"Italy’s air force is “taken for granted” by the general public, politicians and the nation’s other armed services, according to a leading academic....

...And despite notable recent milestones – including it performing the first transatlantic crossing with the Lockheed Martin F-35 – the air force is still perceived less favourably than its sister services.

That flight was also made against the backdrop of wider doubts, he says: “There was scepticism [about] letting the Italians go first, but it worked out well.” [Nah the Italian Air Farce are surrender monkeys SHIRLEY - this is a ridiculous proposition - I reckon leading academics are full of shite!]...

...Rome is exploring the wider use of its air assets outside conflicts, and is trying to expand the F-35’s role into new areas, such as data collection, Alegi says. [Geez this is easy - it is collecting data - HEAPS]

“What if we can find a use for air power during peacetime? We’re thinking about how to do that.”

“Air power is not seen as the way of approaching a problem, other than during humanitarian crises.”

Growing the number of roles performed by the Joint Strike Fighter is vital, [easy peasy just listen to Italian F-35 pilots but hey acamadamademics are cool - NOT] he says, not least as a future replacement for the Eurofighter Typhoons currently operated by the service. [This academic needs to get edumacated Shirley]

“We need to make the most of this [the F-35],” he says. “When you point out that the Typhoon is more expensive than the F-35, it doesn’t really resonate, because air policing is a good use of them.”"

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ev-429948/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
Next

Return to Program and politics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests