F-35 JSF vs Eurofighter Typhoon

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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Dragon029

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Unread post13 Oct 2015, 04:16

According to a calculation by a senior EADS radar expert, the Captor-E, which will use 1,426 T/R modules and is scheduled to be integrated onto the Eurofighter Typhoon in 2015, is capable of recognizing the F-35 at around 59 kilometers away.

He acknowledged that the chance is high for the F-35 to detect and fire missiles first against fourth-generation jets, such as the Eurofighter or Boeing’s F-15, but claimed that the latter are capable of dodging missiles and successfully counterattacking at such a long range.

His calculation shows that the F-35’s APG-81, which allegedly has 1,400 T/R modules, will be able to recognize the Eurofighter or semi-stealth fighter at 120 kilometers or farther based on the assumption both radars have the same capability.



If he can't get the correct T/R module count for the F-35, I'm not sure I'd trust his calculations; he may be a senior radar expert, but if you put garbage in, you'll get garbage out (particularly in regards to what values he's used for the F-35's RCS).
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Unread post13 Oct 2015, 12:10

Knowing the number of T&R modules does not equate to figuring out the detection range. There is SOOO much more to consider like (I am sure ai will miss some):
T&R construction
T&R peak & average power
T&R efficiency
Backend modules
Software & hardware in the ICP to process & fuze the data

You're right about his getting the module count wrong, how hard is it to count to 1626 ;)

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Unread post13 Oct 2015, 12:59

Dragon029 wrote:
According to a calculation by a senior EADS radar expert, the Captor-E, which will use 1,426 T/R modules and is scheduled to be integrated onto the Eurofighter Typhoon in 2015, is capable of recognizing the F-35 at around 59 kilometers away.

He acknowledged that the chance is high for the F-35 to detect and fire missiles first against fourth-generation jets, such as the Eurofighter or Boeing’s F-15, but claimed that the latter are capable of dodging missiles and successfully counterattacking at such a long range.

His calculation shows that the F-35’s APG-81, which allegedly has 1,400 T/R modules, will be able to recognize the Eurofighter or semi-stealth fighter at 120 kilometers or farther based on the assumption both radars have the same capability.


If he can't get the correct T/R module count for the F-35, I'm not sure I'd trust his calculations; he may be a senior radar expert, but if you put garbage in, you'll get garbage out (particularly in regards to what values he's used for the F-35's RCS).


Another problem with this calculation is that F-35 would have only 17-18 times smaller RCS than Eurofighter Typhoon. If that assumes the metal golf ball RCS for F-35, then Typhoon would have RCS of less than 0.03 square meters, which is rather small and might be possible only with totally clean Typhoon. Such a clean Typhoon would not be much combat value in any case. Of course it's said "or farther" which can mean basically anything. Of course we also now know that F-35 likely has quite a bit smaller RCS than metal golf ball. IMO, the difference in RCS between F-35 and Typhoon is much bigger than that.

However there is also quite a problem with logic in this. How is Typhoon going to detect and track the F-35 when outmaneuvering missiles (good luck with that) and then counterattack successfully? Especially so since even he admits that F-35 would detect Typhoon much farther away and could chose the moment of attack. This radar expert also must have not heard from EW, which would favor F-35 immensely due to much smaller RCS and more powerful jamming system. Same jamming power that would drop Typhoon detection range to half (to 60 km) would drop F-35 detection range to less than 15 km even using his numbers.
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Unread post13 Oct 2015, 19:04

Not to worry.
Germany Suspends Eurofighter Deliveries Due to Quality Problems
13 Oct 2015 Lars Hoffman

"GOTTINGEN, Germany — The German Air Force has temporarily suspended delivery of Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jets following the discovery of quality problems involving the connection between the vertical stabilizers and the body of the aircraft.

In a notification to the German Bundestag, the Ministry of Defense said that drillings and the removal of burr were not conducted according to specifications....

...According to the MoD, all of the German Eurofighters delivered from tranche 1 through to the current 3A standard are affected...."

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /73871500/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post13 Oct 2015, 19:20

spazsinbad wrote:Not to worry.
Germany Suspends Eurofighter Deliveries Due to Quality Problems
13 Oct 2015 Lars Hoffman

"GOTTINGEN, Germany — The German Air Force has temporarily suspended delivery of Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jets following the discovery of quality problems involving the connection between the vertical stabilizers and the body of the aircraft.

In a notification to the German Bundestag, the Ministry of Defense said that drillings and the removal of burr were not conducted according to specifications....

...According to the MoD, all of the German Eurofighters delivered from tranche 1 through to the current 3A standard are affected...."

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /73871500/



I wonder if the usual suspects will screech about this like a flock of gut shot harpies or if we'll just hear crickets. :wink:
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Unread post13 Oct 2015, 20:05

sferrin wrote:I wonder if the usual suspects will screech about this like a flock of gut shot harpies or if we'll just hear crickets. :wink:


BAE Systems is also a contractor on the F-35.
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Unread post14 Oct 2015, 01:02

sferrin wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:Not to worry.
Germany Suspends Eurofighter Deliveries Due to Quality Problems
13 Oct 2015 Lars Hoffman

"GOTTINGEN, Germany — The German Air Force has temporarily suspended delivery of Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jets following the discovery of quality problems involving the connection between the vertical stabilizers and the body of the aircraft.

In a notification to the German Bundestag, the Ministry of Defense said that drillings and the removal of burr were not conducted according to specifications....

...According to the MoD, all of the German Eurofighters delivered from tranche 1 through to the current 3A standard are affected...."

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /73871500/



I wonder if the usual suspects will screech about this like a flock of gut shot harpies or if we'll just hear crickets. :wink:


Will they ever get this aircraft fixed!?! It's taken years!! Cancel
cancel!

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Unread post14 Oct 2015, 01:47

ALL CAPS - YOU FORGOT YOUR TRAINING!
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Unread post03 Dec 2015, 21:41

spazsinbad wrote:Not to worry.
Germany Suspends Eurofighter Deliveries Due to Quality Problems
13 Oct 2015 Lars Hoffman

"GOTTINGEN, Germany — The German Air Force has temporarily suspended delivery of Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jets following the discovery of quality problems involving the connection between the vertical stabilizers and the body of the aircraft.

In a notification to the German Bundestag, the Ministry of Defense said that drillings and the removal of burr were not conducted according to specifications....

...According to the MoD, all of the German Eurofighters delivered from tranche 1 through to the current 3A standard are affected...."

Source: http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /73871500/


This was some drilled holes that weren't deburred, not exactly a program ender.
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Unread post04 Dec 2015, 03:27

The majority of structural cracks form at a drilled hole. Reason is the high stress concentration found around holes, especially at the sharp corner where the hole meets the surface of the structure. One of the most effective ways to reduce the stress concentration, and the likelyhood of crack formation, is to chamfer that corner about 1 mm by deburring. The burr isn't the problem, it's the sharp edge.

The German authorities acted wisely.
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Unread post04 Dec 2015, 04:36

Thanks 'JW' - I wondered about that.
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Unread post04 Dec 2015, 08:31

I guess the F-35s will join in - when appropriate - soon enough.
U.S., British, French forces partner for inaugural Trilateral Exercise at JBLE
01 Dec 2015 Staff Sgt. J.D. Strong II; 633rd Air Base Wing Public Affairs

"12/1/2015 - JOINT BASE LANGLEY-EUSTIS, Va. -- U.S. Service members will partner with members of the United Kingdom's Royal Air Force (RAF) and the French Air Force (FrAF) for the inaugural Trilateral anti-access/area denial exercise scheduled for Dec. 2-18, 2015, at Langley Air Force Base, Virginia.

The exercise, hosted by the 1st Fighter Wing (FW), will focus on operations in a highly-contested operational environment through a variety of simulated adversary scenarios. According to U.S. Air Force Col. Pete Fesler, the commander of the 1st FW, the intent of the exercise is to gain an understanding of the logistics, support requirements, capabilities, tactics, techniques and procedures associated with the integrated operation of coalition front-line fighters....

...The exercise will not only feature the U.S.'s Raptor, but also the RAF's Typhoon and the FrAF's Rafale as primary aircraft. The Trilateral Exercise will be the first time these coalition aircraft have flown together. Adversary aircraft will be replicated by the U.S.'s F-15E Strike Eagles and T-38 Talons. The U.S.'s Airborne Warning and Control System, as well as U.S. and FrAF tankers will also provide support during the exercise...."

Source: http://www.jble.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123464373
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post06 Dec 2015, 15:11

johnwill wrote:The majority of structural cracks form at a drilled hole. Reason is the high stress concentration found around holes, especially at the sharp corner where the hole meets the surface of the structure. One of the most effective ways to reduce the stress concentration, and the likelyhood of crack formation, is to chamfer that corner about 1 mm by deburring. The burr isn't the problem, it's the sharp edge.

The German authorities acted wisely.


Hi JW hope you are well, and oh yes I agree but for some reason I was thinking about cable chafe rather than anything structural.
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Unread post23 Jun 2016, 06:59

spazsinbad wrote:I guess the F-35s will join in - when appropriate - soon enough.
U.S., British, French forces partner for inaugural Trilateral Exercise at JBLE
01 Dec 2015 Staff Sgt. J.D. Strong II; 633rd Air Base Wing Public Affairs

"12/1/2015 - JOINT BASE LANGLEY-EUSTIS, Va. -- U.S. Service members will partner with members of the United Kingdom's Royal Air Force (RAF) and the French Air Force (FrAF) for the inaugural Trilateral anti-access/area denial exercise scheduled for Dec. 2-18, 2015, at Langley Air Force Base, Virginia.

The exercise, hosted by the 1st Fighter Wing (FW), will focus on operations in a highly-contested operational environment through a variety of simulated adversary scenarios. According to U.S. Air Force Col. Pete Fesler, the commander of the 1st FW, the intent of the exercise is to gain an understanding of the logistics, support requirements, capabilities, tactics, techniques and procedures associated with the integrated operation of coalition front-line fighters....

...The exercise will not only feature the U.S.'s Raptor, but also the RAF's Typhoon and the FrAF's Rafale as primary aircraft. The Trilateral Exercise will be the first time these coalition aircraft have flown together. Adversary aircraft will be replicated by the U.S.'s F-15E Strike Eagles and T-38 Talons. The U.S.'s Airborne Warning and Control System, as well as U.S. and FrAF tankers will also provide support during the exercise...."

Source: http://www.jble.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123464373


I cant wait to see the F-35 versus the typhoon.
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Unread post10 Jun 2017, 14:50

Interesting video posted by Airbus on Facebook;
https://www.facebook.com/airbus/videos/ ... 880764655/

shows the AoA required for EF2000 to go as slowly as the other guys.
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