The truth about the F-22

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blackuday

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Unread post23 Sep 2015, 12:42

oldiaf wrote:The F-22 will get HOBS AIM-9X and HMCS with software increment 3.1 and 3.2 ... Rafal and EF Typhoon will have no chance in dogfight ... Not mentioning these aircrafts will burns with BVR shoot earlier.



You only talk of the future, is still future. While we are talking about the present :bang:

AIM-120D performance 100% is sure ?!. I do not think so, AIM-120A / B was less effective with the MiG-21/25/29 of the Yugoslavia and Iraq, they lack ECM pod, RWR, FCR is poor. Most winners of F-15/16 are recorded by AIM-9
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oldiaf

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Unread post23 Sep 2015, 12:48

The moment any missile will be launched ... DAS on F-35 will pinpoint the exact location of the launch ... Acoording to LM the F-22 will get defensive IRST as MAWS also.
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blackuday

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Unread post23 Sep 2015, 12:51

oldiaf wrote:The moment any missile will be launched ... DAS on F-35 will pinpoint the exact location of the launch ... Acoording to LM the F-22 will get defensive IRST as MAWS also.


Su-30, J-11B was equipped with a front Maws F-35/22 have it

J-11B-MAWS

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http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-SinoFlanker.html
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oldiaf

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Unread post23 Sep 2015, 12:53

blackuday wrote:
oldiaf wrote:The F-22 will get HOBS AIM-9X and HMCS with software increment 3.1 and 3.2 ... Rafal and EF Typhoon will have no chance in dogfight ... Not mentioning these aircrafts will burns with BVR shoot earlier.



You only talk of the future, is still future. While we are talking about the present :bang:

AIM-120D performance 100% is sure ?!. I do not think so, AIM-120A / B was less effective with the MiG-21/25/29 of the Yugoslavia and Iraq, they lack ECM pod, RWR, FCR is poor. Most winners of F-15/16 are recorded by AIM-9

Its not far future .... Increment 3.2 2017 will get rudimentary AIM-9X with 220 launchers started to be fitted to F-22 , the AIM-9X will show AIM-9M mark on HUD ... In 2018 with increment 3.2b the AIM-9X will be fully integrated .... Regarding HMCS ... They successfully tested the Scorpion-HMCS in 2014 and its compatible with stealth and avionics .... Final software update Increment 5 will be in 2020.
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oldiaf

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Unread post23 Sep 2015, 12:56

blackuday wrote:
oldiaf wrote:The moment any missile will be launched ... DAS on F-35 will pinpoint the exact location of the launch ... Acoording to LM the F-22 will get defensive IRST as MAWS also.


Su-30, J-11B was equipped with a front Maws F-35/22 have it

J-11B-MAWS

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http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-SinoFlanker.html

Su-30/J-11 is not stealth aircraft ... It will be long gone if went against F-22
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zero-one

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Unread post23 Sep 2015, 12:57

blackuday wrote:
[url]“Raptor has vector thrust: Typhoon doesn’t,” he said. “What the aircraft can do, it’s incredible. The Typhoon just doesn’t do that.”

Even if it is a matter of fact that the European top class fighter jet lacks thrust vectoring (TV) our source believes that this is not a big deal.

To be honest, the points he raises were already discussed in the article about the outcome of the dogfights between the U.S. Air Force F-22 Raptors and the German Air Force Eurofighter Typhoons during last year’s Red Flag – Alaska, when Americans said the F-22 performance was “overwhelming” while Germans said the costly stealth fighter was “salad” for the Eurofighter’s pilots lunch.

At that time, we said that the F-22 tends to lose too much energy when using TV and unless the Raptor can manage to immediately get in the proper position to score a kill, the energy it loses makes it quite vulnerable.[/url]

http://www.businessinsider.com/f-22-won ... ter-2013-2


well first, it was not an advertisement, it was an assessment BY THE BRITISH THEMSELVES not by Lockheed Martin.
Learn to read next time.

Second, Thrust Vectoring is useless according to a Typhoon Pilot who has never flown a Thrust Vectoring aircraft.

Of course he will say that. he doesn't know how to use it.

If you ask an F-16 pilot what he thinks of high angle of attack maneuverability
he will say its useless

but ask an F/A-18 pilot the same question and he will say that high AOA is essential in a dogfight.

Same thing with the Typhoon,

Also according to the assessment BY THE BRITISH TYPHOON WEBSITE, the F-22 is superior to the Typhoon in almost all maneuvering metrics, with or without Thrust vectoring.
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zero-one

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Unread post23 Sep 2015, 13:00

blackuday wrote:
Was really have video proof, F-22 capable Super Maneuverable similar Su-35 ? All that the F-22's fanboy trying to prove, just as the advertisement of F-22 manufacturer

Forget the F-22 and F-35, this is a real Super Maneuverable Fighter plane: the Russian Su-35 Flanker-E

http://theaviationist.com/2013/06/17/su-35-le-bourget/


Did you just say that this article in a BLOG site was Proof :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
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Unread post23 Sep 2015, 13:48

blackuday wrote:Electronic technology of the F-22 is the 1990s.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... -tech.html

The absence of AIM-120D, AIM-9X and HMDS system, F-22 will cause inferior before all other aircraft, including the MiG-31, Su-30SM and Su-35


Original electronic technology of the F-22 is 1990s technology but it has been updated.

But how on earth is 1960s to 1980s technology better than 1990s technology? Yes, R-73/74 has advantages against AIM-9M, but AIM-120C model is definitely superior to R-27 and R-77 current operational models. Otherwise F-22 electronics is much superior to electronics in those Russian aircraft.

blackuday wrote:F-22 was defeated by a Rafale


Whoa, so if it loses just one dogfight, it's no good?

blackuday wrote:J-31 has an IRST can detect the F-22 in the range above 100km. The lack IRST will be a big disadvantage for the F-22 in future
...

[url]Shown placed on the front starboard side of the J-31 canopy, A-Star's EORD-31 serves as an IRST, similar to the OLS-27 series used by the Russian Sukhoi Su-27 fighter. However, instead of a spherical dome cover, the EORD-31 is flat and facetted. Chinese press reports claimed the system may be able to detect a Lockheed Martin F-22A at 110 km and a Boeing B-2 at 150 km.[/url]


Those claims seem extremely optimistic since they'd be far superior to any thermal imaging system from China to date.

blackuday wrote:The Su-35 has a IRST can detect the F-35 (with smaller RCS F-22) in the range of 90km, without interest in RCS of F-35


That's not true. Su-35 IRST is claimed to be able to detect Su-30 from rear 90 km away maximum. Su-30 frontal detection range is claimed to be up to 35 km.

Image

Su-30 has two powerful engines and has no IR reduction measures compared to F-35. I'd be surprised if F-35 detection range was even half of those figures. Besides those figures are max ranges in perfect conditions.
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eloise

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Unread post23 Sep 2015, 14:20

blackuday wrote:
1. F-22 is not a stealth aircraft world number one. F-35 has RCS smaller than F-22

yes , according to most recent offical information F-35 have lower RCS than F-22 , but does that actually matter ? their RCS is low enough that practically it not possible for airbone radar to track them much further than WVR , especially with jamming
blackuday wrote:2. The F-22 is not the aircraft avionics world number one. F-35, Typhoon and Rafale have even better technology on F-22's systems

proof ?

blackuday wrote:3. The F-22 is not the most maneuverable aircraft world. Su-27/30/35, Rafale, F-15C, F-16C/E, Typhoon even J-10/11 are the maneuverability aircraft F-22 higher

do you actually have any proof of that ? like a graph or sth ?
blackuday wrote:4. F-22 in the duel with Typhoon, EA-18G, Rafale ....! F-22 are intended to fail.

So there is that one time F-22was defeated by these fighter in WVR and you concluded that F-22 will fail everytime it see them ?
really ? , why dont you add F-16 to the list as well ?
by your logic we can well concluded that F-16 is the best dogfighter ever , given the fact that it defeated both the Typhoon and the F-22
RAF Eurofighter Typhoons 'beaten by Pakistani F-16s
Pakistani pilots flying modernised versions of the 1970s-vintage F-16 Falcon fighter have beaten the RAF's brand-new Eurofighter Typhoon superfighters during air combat exercises in Turkey, according to a Pakistani officer.
On one occasion – in one of the international Anatolian Eagles - PAF pilots were pitted against RAF Typhoons, a formidable aircraft. There were three set-ups and in all three, we shot down the Typhoons. The RAF pilots were shocked.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/08 ... en_by_f16/
. During their first major exercise in Alaska last year, F-22s from the 27th Fighter Squadron shot down 144 "enemy" F-15s and F/A-18s in mock dogfights. Still flush from that victory, the 27th headed to Okinawa in February and its sister 94th Fighter Squadron simultaneously deployed to Nellis Air force Base, Nevada, for the new stealth jets’ first Red Flag exercise. While the 27th was sweeping the skies clear of Air Force F-15s and 1960s-era Japanese F-4s, the 94th ran headlong into the F-16s of the 64th Aggressor Squadron and suffered its first simulated shoot-down

An F-16C pilot assigned to the 64th Aggressor Squadron gained the first-ever F-22 kill in Red Flag. [94th commander] Lt. Col. Dirk Smith told AFM: "At least half of the 94th FS crews had less than 50 hours in the F-22 and no matter how magical the F-22, any pilot can make a mistake.

http://www.wired.com/2007/07/first-f-22-rapt/
blackuday wrote:5. F-22 aircraft is the only 5th generation no HMDS system, Typhoon, Rafale even MiG-35 are equipped with this system.

out of the only F-22 have stealth , and while it very easy to put HMDS on F-22 , it not possible to make these 4.5 gen fighter stealthy
btw , how many Mig-35 actually flying today ? 1 or 2?
blackuday wrote:6. F-22 aircraft is the only 5th generation without using materials RAM

F-22 dont use RAM ? :doh: :doh: really :doh:
blackuday wrote:7. F-22 is struggling to upgrade avionics and weapons. Expected in the period 2017-2020, the F-22 can use the AIM-9X, AIM-120D and HMDS was put on equipment.

it isnt struggling to upgrade it's avionics , the reasons why F-22 still havent got Aim-9X , HMD like the F-15 , F-16 , F-18 is because it isnot on the high priority list , and the reason it not on the high priority list is because USAF consider the stealth , speed , altitude that F-22 have , is more than enough to ensure it's super survivability now , it very unlikely that F-22 would need to go to the merge because of it's low RCS and speed. By contrast , there are much higher chance that F-15 , F-16 need to engage in close combat , thus they are given HMD and HOBS missiles
blackuday wrote:8. F-22 is a 5th generation aircraft first encounter many accidents.

No sh*t , because it the only 5gen fighter that actually flying , launching missiles , drop bombs and participated in actual combat , while all these T-50 , J-31 , J-20 ..etc are still at the early phase of their development plan , they arenot even gone into LRIP yet

blackuday wrote:9. F-22 does not have the ability to use anti-ship weapon.

No evidence that F-22 wont be able to use JSM once it done
blackuday wrote:10. The maximum speed of the F-22 is inferior to the MiG-21 and F-4

maximum speed are not important
and in term of max speed, others 5 gen , 4.5 gen fighter are actually slower than F-22
take the T-50 for example : it only have top speed of mach 2
blackuday wrote:11. Until the present time, the F-22 only use AIM-9M, AIM-120C5/6 (unknown F-22 can use version AIM-12C7)

until present time others 5 gen aircraft such as J-20 , J-31 , PAK-FA havent demonstrate their ability to launch missiles yet , their software havent been finished , so f-22 doing just fine , if not much better
Last edited by eloise on 23 Sep 2015, 16:22, edited 1 time in total.
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eloise

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Unread post23 Sep 2015, 15:57

blackuday wrote:
The absence of AIM-120D, AIM-9X and HMDS system, F-22 will cause inferior before all other aircraft, including the MiG-31, Su-30SM and Su-35

Actually no , even without HOBS missiles , HMD and Aim-120D , F-22 still far surpassed all these aircraft you mentioned above , for the simple fact that stealth will allow it to attack enemy without being attacked
blackuday wrote:J-31 has an IRST can detect the F-22 in the range above 100km. The lack IRST will be a big disadvantage for the F-22 in future

Image

[url]Shown placed on the front starboard side of the J-31 canopy, A-Star's EORD-31 serves as an IRST, similar to the OLS-27series used by the Russian Sukhoi Su-27 fighter. However, instead of a spherical dome cover, the EORD-31 is flat and facetted. Chinese press reports claimed the system may be able to detect a Lockheed Martin F-22A at 110 km and a Boeing B-2 at 150 km.[/url]

http://www.janes.com/article/53064/beij ... er-sensors

To be honest chinese press are quite infamous with their nonsense claim so i advice you to take any piece of information from them with grain of salt , especially with something they claimed "may be able "
Also a single IRST detecting range number are meaningless without knowing the exact condition such as target speed , aspect angle , altitude and weather condition

for IR system , tail-on detection range are often triple the head-on detection range
For example :
OLS-35 can detect subsonic fighter from 90 km if it is tail aspect ,but if it is front aspect the range dropped to just around 35 km

target speed will also affected IR system detection range significantly
assumed the same IR system is used , a target moving at mach 1.8 can be detected from 3 times the distance compare to a target moving at mach 0.8
Image
Image

altitude and weather condition is another very important part of determining IR detection range , as we already know IR radiation are absorbed by moisture in air , as a result at lower altitude where the air is thicker , IR detection range decrease , an IRST with 100 km detection range in optimum condition clear weather can easily have range of only 3-4 km in cloudy days


It important to remember that even in optimum condition , clear weather , to achieved these advertising range optical sensor ( IR / EO ) have to zoom , when zooming they have very narrow FoV, and the scan rate of optical sensor are significantly slower than an AESA / PESA radar .And while optical sensor may have very long detection range ( aas-42, private can reach out 200 km) their targeting range where they can give firing solution are very short because they have to rely on LFR to get range and velocity information , LRF are often only 20-30 km

anyway according to the chinese EORD-31 is similar similar to the OLS-27 series used by the Russian Sukhoi Su-27 fighter, so it safe to assumed their huge 100 km detection range is again the tail aspect of F-22 at full afterburner

blackuday wrote: The Su-35 has a IRST can detect the F-35 (with smaller RCS F-22) in the range of 90km, without interest in RCS of F-35

Ok, it’s not stealth (even if some sources say it can detect stealth planes like the F-35 at a distance of over 90 kilometers), but once engaged in a WVR (Within Visual Range) air-to-air engagement, it can freely maneuver to point the nose and weapons in any direction, to achieve the proper position for a kill.

http://theaviationist.com/2013/06/17/su-35-le-bourget/

That not true , OLS-35 is advertised to be able to detect a su-30 from 90 km or less tail on and 35 km or less head on , The F-35 is both smaller than Su-30 , it also have IR signature reduction measure
"Materials
On the F-35 several special materials are used, including Radar Absorbing Materials (RAM), Radar Absorbing Structure and Infrared (IR) Topcoat. Unlike the F-117, which was totally coated with 2,000 pounds of RAM, these materials are more selectively used on the F-35. Lockheed Martin developed paint-type RAM which is applied around the edges of doors and control surfaces. RAS is used on the body, wing and tail edges. For the application of this paint robots will be used, like the CASPER (Computer Aided Spray Paint Expelling Robot) system used for F-22 and the Have Glass II program used for painting 1,700 F-16s with RAM. Robots are essential because they can reach confined areas, as the inlet ducts, and can work without stepping on the aircraft.

These materials comprise ferromagnetic particles, embedded in a high-dielectric-constant polymer base. The dielectric material slows down the wave and the ferromagnetic particles absorb the energy. These coatings are also designed in a way that the small reflection from the front face of the absorber is cancelled by a residual reflection from the structure beneath it. This is not an easy procedure, and it makes RAM design much more tricky than most people believe.

F-35’s entire airframe is also painted with a camouflage topcoat that suppresses IR

http://evangelidis.gr/embry/F35LO-ShortReport-HTML.htm

Image
LOAN provides a significant reduction in radar cross section and infrared signature emissions from the engine
During tests from idle to maximum afterburner, measurements were taken of infrared images, nozzle temperatures, and nacelle inlet pressures and airflow velocities. The nozzle also has been successfully tested on the Pratt & Whitney JTDE FX650 (Joint Technology Demonstrator Engine) for the JSF program.

With the LOAN, stealth is achieved through a combination of technologies. These include geometrical shaping, an advanced cooling system, and special coatings on internal and external structures. Due to the effectiveness of the advanced cooling system, the life of the nozzle divergent flaps will be more than doubled

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article20.html


blackuday wrote:I'm just talking about the max of detection, I did not talking about the range of destroy ! it's ok

The ability to destroy via IRST only by Su-27/30/35 or T-50. They use infrared versions of R-27 AAM. F-22 is not have weapon similar to the R-27ET

R-27ET AA-10 Alamo-D, the infrared-homing extended-range version, Weight 348 kg. Missile can be used at 20 to 27000 meters altitude. Effective kill range: 2 to 52.5 km head-on, 0.7 to 12.5 tail-on. Maximum range: 104 km. Maximum allowed vertical separation: 12 km

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-27_%28a ... al_pg129-3

T-50 cannot carry R-27 , and R-27ET doesn't have datalink so good luck shot down anything with it , the moment the target slightly change their course , your missiles become useless , in fact R-27ET doesnt even have IIR seeker either , so it much easier to fool compared to missiles like MICA or Aim-9X


blackuday wrote:You only talk of the future, is still future. While we are talking about the present :bang:


we can take about the present if you want , at the moment , F-22 is the only 5gen fighter that finished all the development phase , and produced in decent number , all these J-20 , J-31 , T-50 haven't even finished flight and weapon test ( which would take several years at least )

blackuday wrote:AIM-120D performance 100% is sure ?!. I do not think so, AIM-120A / B was less effective with the MiG-21/25/29 of the Yugoslavia and Iraq, they lack ECM pod, RWR, FCR is poor.

No one say AIM-120D will have 100% PK , however even if the PK is only 30% then 3 missiles is enough to ensure a target shoot down
BTW
original Mig-25 use RP-25 Smerch-A1 radar, the most powerful ever built at the time , however RP-25 Smerch-A1 lack look down , shoot down capability , Iraq used Mig-25PD fitted with R-15BD-300 engines and new N-005 Saphir-25 (RP-25M) Pulse-Doppler radar with look-down/shoot down capability , it also have Sirena S-3M radar warning system (RWR); HF and UHF radios; identification friend or foe (IFF) transponder system; low and high altitude radar altimeters; and a cockpit voice recorder. P-26Sh-1 IRST is another new feature of Mig-25PD
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Unread post23 Sep 2015, 20:54

In the future,

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I'm watching...
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