F-35 flies against A-4s: F-35 pilots lyrical about F-35

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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spazsinbad

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Unread post29 Aug 2015, 09:36

This is under the photo: "...The second photo in the article above shows a different model Skyhawk (not from Oz) and is likely an A-4L [actually A-4N] in form with the ex-A4G etc." A way to check is to go to DRAKEN website to see what other than A-4K KAHU Skyhawks they fly there: http://www.drakenintl.com/aircraft-inventory.html The info on the Skyhawk is a bit erroneous because they bought 6 ex-A4G/A-4K Kahu Skyhawks PLUS two TA-4K Kahu Trainers (ex RNZAF only). So that leaves 3 unaccounted for Skyhawks which will be their earlier model used as per:
Draken International Adds Six A-4N Skyhawks to Growing Fleet
12 Dec 2014 PR WEB

“Draken International, a provider of 4th-generation tactical flight support, has completed an acquisition of six McDonnell Douglas A-4N Skyhawks [modified A-4Ms for Israeli Air Force hence the longer tailpipe for IR protection] from BAE Systems and has successfully flown these aircraft back to the United States from Germany...."

Source: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2014/12/prweb12392964.htm

Earlier DRAKEN did have 3 A-4Ls but it seems these have been retired (probably when A-4K Kahus came along).
NEW AGGRESSOR IN THE COMMERCIAL ADVERSARY SUPPORT GAME: DRAKEN INTERNATIONAL BETS BIG ON RED AIR
07 Aug 2012 aviationintel.com

"...3 A-4L Skyhawks: Currently wearing “zebra’ camouflage and Draken International titles...."

Source: http://aviationintel.com/2012/08/07/new ... n-red-air/

BELOW IS THE ZEBRA A-4L http://www.flickr.com/photos/fujiboy/75 ... otostream/

Whilst a BAE A-4N is here: http://img.planespotters.net/photo/4130 ... 413429.jpg
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DRAKEN_A-4LpaintScheme.jpg
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A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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basher54321

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Unread post29 Aug 2015, 15:47

The way I always check a Skyhawk II (A-4M/N) is the different / larger canopy - Israel also modified its A-4H/E/Fs with the avionics hump and IR tailpipe.
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Unread post29 Aug 2015, 16:41

" Because in the F-35 cockpit Smit can look with the sensors, including the advanced AN / APG81 radar, many tens of kilometers further than an F-16 pilot, every action of the "enemy" Skyhawk jet fighters could therefore already be countered in an extremely early stage."

This paragraph says it all!!

I am suspecting that if the adversary A4s are replaced by F16s, the results will be the same. Red air F16s getting thrashed good. Must be no fun eating an AMRAAM or even a Sidewinder in the face whilst trying to gain situational awareness from disparate sensors/sources of data and coming up belatedly with a "game plan".
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Unread post29 Aug 2015, 18:46

reaper wrote:
eloise wrote:Anyone here have EM graph of A-4? how agile it is compare to F-16?
why did they used F-16 + F-35 vs A-4 though ? why not opposite ( F-35+ A-4 vs F-16) ? A-4 seem to have worse kinematic characteristics compared to F-16


Because the purpose of the test was to look at interoperability maybe? Having the F-16 as red air and the A-4 on their side wouldn't have worked.


The objective of the scenarios was obviously for the DUTCH to evaluate qualitatively and perhaps quantitatively the advantages of the F-35 over the F-16 against some control baseline. In this case, it appears the baseline scenario provided some challenges for the F-16 that disappeared when the F-35 was added into the mix. We see it was also not lost on the DUTCH that the F-35 enhances the F-16's performance as well.
It is only an interesting side-benefit that it will irritate the 'maneuverability' fetishists to no end--Since apparently the fight never devolved to a point where F-35 'maneuverability' was a factor. Who'd a thunk? :wink:
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Unread post29 Aug 2015, 20:23

smsgtmac wrote:
reaper wrote:
eloise wrote:Anyone here have EM graph of A-4? how agile it is compare to F-16?
why did they used F-16 + F-35 vs A-4 though ? why not opposite ( F-35+ A-4 vs F-16) ? A-4 seem to have worse kinematic characteristics compared to F-16


Because the purpose of the test was to look at interoperability maybe? Having the F-16 as red air and the A-4 on their side wouldn't have worked.


The objective of the scenarios was obviously for the DUTCH to evaluate qualitatively and perhaps quantitatively the advantages of the F-35 over the F-16 against some control baseline. In this case, it appears the baseline scenario provided some challenges for the F-16 that disappeared when the F-35 was added into the mix. We see it was also not lost on the DUTCH that the F-35 enhances the F-16's performance as well.
It is only an interesting side-benefit that it will irritate the 'maneuverability' fetishists to no end--Since apparently the fight never devolved to a point where F-35 'maneuverability' was a factor. Who'd a thunk? :wink:

It's not a specifically Dutch test, although Dutch F16's were used for testing interoperability. But testing within the IOT&E phase. As well 6 US and British F35 joined in these two weeks. At least one of the Dutch F35's is orange wired with specific equipment for collecting data. Suppose the Dutch , as partners in the IOT&E phase, offered their F16's
This kind of testing seems, within some time, to be done with Apache helicopters as well

Monday August 24
Quote: The purpose of these two weeks is to test how our F-16s, so-called 4th generation appliances integrate with that of the 5th generation F-35. (translation Google)
https://www.defensie.nl/onderwerpen/f-3 ... htsvlieger

Using these 6 F16's and a KDC-10 saves at least some US tax payer money :wink:
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smsgtmac

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Unread post30 Aug 2015, 03:00

m wrote:It's not a specifically Dutch test, although Dutch F16's were used for testing interoperability. But testing within the IOT&E phase. As well 6 US and British F35 joined in these two weeks. At least one of the Dutch F35's is orange wired with specific equipment for collecting data. Suppose the Dutch , as partners in the IOT&E phase, offered their F16's
This kind of testing seems, within some time, to be done with Apache helicopters as well

Monday August 24
Quote: The purpose of these two weeks is to test how our F-16s, so-called 4th generation appliances integrate with that of the 5th generation F-35. (translation Google)
https://www.defensie.nl/onderwerpen/f-3 ... htsvlieger

Using these 6 F16's and a KDC-10 saves at least some US tax payer money :wink:


Yeah I got the whole Kumbaya Joint Test (JOTT) bit in the Edwards press release. I was snarking on the point that no Norwegians were harmed in the conduct of these tests. :wink:
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Unread post30 Aug 2015, 03:13

bring_it_on wrote:Image


Pretty impressive shot of F-35 going vertical from a start-point of 10' feet?? One could only imagine what the rate of climb is, clean, with a mere 2x AAM, vs other competitors...
The Super-Viper has not yet begun to concede.
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Unread post30 Aug 2015, 04:13

:mrgreen: Nah - the aircraft is straight and level - the earth rotated especially for the shot - and.... gravity sucks - man. :devil:
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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Unread post30 Aug 2015, 10:47

Perfect Picture! :D Perfect audio for the picture is the "Magic carpet ride" by Steppenwolf!
(or born to be wild is great too)
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Unread post30 Aug 2015, 11:10

:devil: Some TOOL music for A4G action movie aboard HMAS Melbourne :devil:

A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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Unread post30 Aug 2015, 17:53

The OLD magic carpet ride (before Magic Carpet today) along song video

A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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Unread post30 Aug 2015, 17:55

geogen wrote:
bring_it_on wrote:Image


Pretty impressive shot of F-35 going vertical from a start-point of 10' feet?? One could only imagine what the rate of climb is, clean, with a mere 2x AAM, vs other competitors...

Not a Norwegian F16, but a Dutch F16 was hit bij machine gun fire earlier this year above Iraq. :wink:
Probably flying low, firing the 20 mm canon.
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Unread post30 Aug 2015, 17:59

Over on the A-10 CAS thread 'Gums' posted the 'BORN TO BE WILD' video: [A-4 winking screenshot from this video]

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=24483&p=300393&hilit=traditional#p300393

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Unread post31 Aug 2015, 00:36

"The OLD magic carpet ride (before Magic Carpet today) along song video"

Now that is what I am talking about! The Tool is kind of odd for me, but I get it. :D Also, just realized, the topic title is actually very apt for the these videos. "F-35 pilots lyrical about the F-35". :D

Hurriedly going to Gum's post.....
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Unread post31 Aug 2015, 13:20

TOOL song fitted nicely (some of the lyrics very appropriate) and I like some heavy metal turned up to ELEVEN! ORION by METALLICA is a classic example. A pic of the ex-A4Gs/Kahus here: http://aviationweek.com/site-files/avia ... /F-35s.jpg

The TA-4K Kahu shown is an original Kiwi RNZAF Skyhawk (modified). The only remaining TA4G gone Kiwis is now in the Fleet Air Arm Museum at NAS Nowra (FAAM). Good on youse Kiwis. The second ex-TA4G spun into water pilot ejected OK.
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F-35AsDutchA4GsEglinAug2015.jpg
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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