Marine's declare IOC

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spazsinbad

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Unread post04 Aug 2015, 19:10

OH come on youse guys. Randall Cunningham is quite a bit different - compared to Kerry & McCain. Puhleez. Sure the two now serving politicians are in high office and speak out of both sides of their gobs because that is the job. Randy? I don't know if he is still in jail?
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post04 Aug 2015, 19:17

spazsinbad wrote:OH come on youse guys. Randall Cunningham is quite a bit different - compared to Kerry & McCain. Puhleez. Sure the two now serving politicians are in high office and speak out of both sides of their gobs because that is the job. Randy? I don't know if he is still in jail?


Cunningham is a bit different. Maybe he just got caught is all. Though McCain's involvement in the Keating 5 scandal and surrounding Charlie Keating and the Savings & Loan debacle, should've likely landed him in jail too.
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Unread post04 Aug 2015, 19:30

I guess we have to work with what IS - rather than what might have been. Randy strikes me as kinda greedy & dumb - compared to the others.
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post04 Aug 2015, 20:40

spazsinbad wrote:I guess we have to work with what IS - rather than what might have been. Randy strikes me as kinda greedy & dumb - compared to the others.


I agree with that Spaz.

He got carried away and got caught. The more polished politicians know how to get away with it.

..like MD said, McCain could have done a long stretch for his past dirty deeds.
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Unread post04 Aug 2015, 21:05

MD wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:This is very personal for people.


What's funny is, the number of people who this is SO personal for, yet who have zero operational stake in what this aircraft can do. Not even remotely

Like many A-10 hardcore fans who have nothing to do with the aircraft, have never flown it or any other military aircraft, and don't have any stake in what the A-10 provides; seeing these people all over A-10 Facebook pages and the like, going hell and highwater angry over the jet being retired. And pontificating about all US troops are now going to instantly die on the battlefield because A-10s won't be around (which doesn't say much for US troops, I'd be offended as one hearing that). Forget the fact that many CAS scenarios were accomplished without A-10s. But these people go so far as to say "screw 5th gen fighters, we need more A-10s!", and go on and on about its capabilities and this and that.

I get one guy telling me all about CAS tactics and about how the gun is so important. To which I responded that the gun isnt the only weapon it has. His response was "you don't drop bombs in a CAS scenario, unless you want friendly fire deaths".

Oh that's funny, I've dropped any number of bombs in CAS scenarios, with and without troops in danger close; a few times with the ground FAC requesting Mk82s even though I was leery of dropping them (my jet was HUD out, all manual mil-crank that day), knowing the proximity of the enemy, understanding that he and his guys will need to seek some serious cover, and passing along the Ground CC's initials as the final approval. It's all dependant on the situation. Sure, there are certain weapons we tend to not use in CAS, but bombs isn't one of them.

Just awesome that after 5 years in the Hog and 2 combat tours in it, some intenet fanboy will proceed to speak as if he's some kind of authority on the specific details of something he knows the square root of jack squat about. :mrgreen:




Bolded part= I am. The way people tell it if there is an A-10 nearby (and there always is of course!) being a grunt is just cake.

As for the rest well said and nice work on the old fashioned attack-- fuaark no HUD?
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Unread post04 Aug 2015, 22:26

XanderCrews wrote:Bolded part= I am. The way people tell it if there is an A-10 nearby (and there always is of course!) being a grunt is just cake.


That's the thing. Is an A-10 nice to have? Sure it is. It brings munitions to the fight to support ground troops, with crews whose focus is CAS. That's great.

But where there's no A-10 available, does CAS quality drop to zero, CAS itself come to a screeching halt, and troops start dying by the hundreds? No. Not by a longshot. Like we've discussed many times here, the A-10 is but one item in the overall CAS toolbox, like many other planes which do the job.

Sometimes the "best" CAS platform is the one which is overhead at the time, available, armed with appropriate munitions, trained, and wanting to get in there and help out. Sometimes that's the only choice.

This idea that troops are going be dying left and right ("the blood of dead US troops from the moment the A-10 is retired will be on those who retired the jet :bang: ), is insane. The implication being that somehow US troops are completely and utterly paralyzed and unable to perform their job without CAS overhead, specifically A-10s.

Those people need to ask the NVA/VC how much air support they ever had? Or even arty support. And did the lack of it completely hamper and paralyze their operations?

As for the rest well said and nice work on the old fashioned attack-- fuaark no HUD?


Yeah, a couple of our jets had electrical gremlins on them. This one happened to manifest itself in the HUD about an hour after takeoff on a 4 hour VUL period, with the HUD green crap working, but being fuzzy like a bad TV (looking like the 3rd ID unit patch). Any other jet? Probably an RTB. In the Hog (at the time), most of us prided ourselves on....and trained/qualed to......dropping HUD degraded or HUD out, with just the depressible pipper called up to the appropriate mils for the weapon/dive angle being delivered. We'd gotten called by the RAF E-3 to a small outpost called Lwara, on the Pakistani border, which was under attack by Taliban with mortars, rockets and small arms. This was about the 4th time I'd been to this outpost in 2 weeks for the same thing. Get overhead and the ground FAC goes through his spiel, negating the 9-line and just pointing out everything outside the camp to the north is enemy. He wants bombs, to which I remind him that it's pretty close, but that's what he wants. Normally, manual bombing, you try to negate as many errors as you can, such as bombing head/tailwind only as much as possible to cancel drift corrections, and bombing as steeply as possible to negate bomb range errors (ironically, the most difficult manual delivery.....even computed one..with a dumb bomb, is a level delivery or lay down); since you yourself are the CCIP, so to speak; the jet isn't giving you crap for help. Due to having to run-in perpendicular to the fight between the two forces, I had to accept a crosswind, but a nice 60 degree delivery took care of the ranging error. Our flight went to work and expended the bombs, rockets and most of the gun. Left there with just gun rounds and an AGM-65 remaining onboard.

These days with the C-model A-10, it's nothing more than a slow F-16. Carries the same air-ground ordnance, same guided stuff, has consent to release etc. But the worst part.....manual bombing is now just a familiarization event, not a qualification event. The Hog students see it once or so in FTU transition, and never see it again. That was always the one qualifier we had from other communities. "When the green stuff fails, we head home" was never our mantra. Nowdays, the kids in the Hog currently, no-HUD bombing for real, might be something they wouldn't do.
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Unread post04 Aug 2015, 23:31

'MD' not taking anything away from your skill and experience but I was living the quote...
"...Normally, manual bombing, you try to negate as many errors as you can, such as bombing head/tailwind only as much as possible to cancel drift corrections, and bombing as steeply as possible to negate bomb range errors (ironically, the most difficult manual delivery.....even computed one..with a dumb bomb, is a level delivery or lay down); since you yourself are the CCIP, so to speak; the jet isn't giving you crap for help...."

This was the early 1970s in an A4G with a 'fixed' gunsight - which could be depressed only - oh the joy of the lower dive angle deliveries. We used to have a 45 degree angle but weather was always an issue so nothing above 30 degrees was SOP. [THEN I THINK WE SETTLED ON 20 degrees? rather than 30 degrees but my memory is probably faulty these days.] Next was 10 degree and in my days only slick bombs that went every which way over and under. Similarly strafing at low angles was problematic. Thankfully I did not see any actual combat (unlike my flying training midshipmen who went off to Vietnam in Iroquois with the US Army to distinguish themselves in 1970).

We had trained airborne FACs (using prop Winjeels in those days) along with any available RAAF FACs plus ARMY FACs on ground and I think airborne if qualified. It was a long time ago now. In the late 1970s after my time I believe the RAN FAA had 'retarded' bombs for level or very low angle deliveries - that must have been nice. :roll:
Last edited by spazsinbad on 05 Aug 2015, 05:36, edited 1 time in total.
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post05 Aug 2015, 00:54

spazsinbad wrote:'MD' not taking anything away from your skill and experience but I was living the quote...

This was the early 1970s in an A4G with a 'fixed' gunsight - which could be depressed only - oh the joy of the lower dive angle deliveries. We used to have a 45 degree angle but weather was always an issue so nothing above 30 degrees was SOP. Next was 10 degree and in my days only slick bombs that went every which way over and under. Similarly strafing at low angles was problematic. Thankfully I did not see any actual combat (unlike my flying training midshipmen who went off to Vietnam in Iroquois with the US Army to distinguish themselves in 1970).

We had trained airborne FACs (using prop Winjeels in those days) along with any available RAAF FACs plus ARMY FACs on ground and I think airborne if qualified. It was a long time ago now. In the late 1970s after my time I believe the RAN FAA had 'retarded' bombs for level or very low angle deliveries - that must have been nice. :roll:


That's all awesome stuff, and I love reading about the days when it was "the norm". Namely because it's such a seemingly lost art anymore these days. Even for us, referencing your comment on low angle deliveries with low-drag bombs, even when I was flying the Hog, our lowest angle low-drag delivery was a 20 degree. Anything less such as 10/15 pop-up, was all high drag munitions only, with either Snakeye fins or ballute tail kits on the bombs. I couldn't imagine back in the days before high drag munitions, low angle deliveries and the safe escape required to be able to fully avoid any and all frag. But that's how it was done then, as there was no other option. Heck, even look at the videos of the Argentine A-4s in 1982, dropping slicks so low that even though they hit their targets, some of the bombs didn't even have time to arm (but still, if I'm not mistaken, still caused enough damage and fires to render some ships out of action or destroyed). Amazing stuff.
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Unread post05 Aug 2015, 02:09

'MD' rest assured - I'm equally amazed at all the precision ways to deliver munitions these days. For one thing multiple targets for one aircraft on one mission - rather than multiple missions to one target in the olden tymes. :doh:

Yes the Argentine A-4s had some slick bomb extreme low level - level - delivery issues and yes unexploded bombs did sink at least one ship eventually as I recall and otherwise severely damage ships on their entry/exit to the deep.

As we would say the 'under/over' problem for our SOP 10 degree dive deliveries (only done for poor weather/ low cloud base) were a real issue. We practiced pop up deliveries in formation (to get the most aircraft/bombs on target in the shortest time in an effort to avoid AckAck/Missiles). However this was a dangerous maneuver in and of itself as we would go to our 20 degree roll-in height (if possible - to actually do it with a real bomb load was difficult). We lost one VF-805 nugget practicing on our nearby range because apparently he forgot to 'never hit your leader' - ever - but he did and died during the dive - leader managed to recover to Nowra with problems via an arrested landing.

I took a break to try to remember the 10 degree bomb (most likely 250/500 pounders) release parameters but cannot after all this time of NOT doing it. Anyway shrapnel was the concern as pointed out along with ricochets during 10 degree strafing so the safety height was relatively high. This meant that windage was vital. We had a 'sight picture' briefed which could mean nothing in the actual wind at altitude conditions - hence multiple missions to the same target. :mrgreen:

CEP was 75 feet during initial training and we liked to get under 50 feet on VF-805 but during my time the emphasis was on our 'fleet defence' role (with only four A4Gs onboard) so our A to G practice was not ideal. As 'Gums' will attest and from my reading about A-4s in Vietnam - especially USN/USMC ground troop FAC support - with daily practice and local knowledge, then dumb bombing accuracy can increase a lot.

I have a photo of a VC-724 chalkboard briefing for the OFS students (Operational Flying School) from my era in the early 1970s. There are some zoom shots of the 'sight picture' briefed also - as if anyone ever achieved them. :mrgreen:

'MD' you may enjoy this old story about such bombings by Jack Woodul (CrudMaster Jock USN & Youthly Puresome) a very funny guy indeed - his stories can be rib splitting: http://youthlypuresome.com/?p=176 & http://youthlypuresome.com/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post05 Aug 2015, 02:47

I notice that LDGP(sim) are briefed. We did not have retards until after my time. :mrgreen: And also note that a level delivery is briefed as a last resort. That is a resort I do not want to spend any time within whatsoever. Yes there are some explanations and the site pictures have been 'enhanced'. The target is the red cross whilst the pipper is placed 'adjacent' by some calculated windage amount and there you have it. Best to click on the picture below and then at least click on it again once opened to zoom in for details. This is c.mid to late 1972 for No.6 OFS with this MISSION being part of their final graduation evaluation sorties. The top three names left are the students with the fourth a supervisory AWI as no.4.

The formation will 'battle' their way down south of Nowra being bounced by bogies to come back up north to the nearby to NAS Nowra Beecroft Armament Range and there to carry out the previously mentioned pop up dive bombing exercise. Usually it is briefed that the bogies stop their activity within the confines of the range because it is just too dangerous otherwise.
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RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post05 Aug 2015, 03:13

This PDF has great info about Bombing Issues: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/docs/16v5.pdf (4.5Mb)
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RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post05 Aug 2015, 05:34

Back on topic with "GREETINGS EARTHLINGS": http://www.yumasun.com/news/vmfa--out-o ... 88a4d.html
"Pre-flight check
A pilot with U.S. Marine Corps Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 121 (VMFA-121) performs a pre-flight check on an F-35B Lightning II Monday morning at Marine Corps Air Station Yuma, before leaving on a training flight. VMFA-121, the "Green Knights," is based at MCAS Yuma and reached initial operational capability Friday."

http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews ... .image.jpg
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RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post05 Aug 2015, 09:06

That's awesome stuff there Spaz! Love the old school bombing triangle, brings back a lot of memories from long ago. Without going too much off topic, that's some good briefing stuff there, and I can still remember all the low work we used to do for under the Wx work, in the days prior to JDAM and such. Pop to acquire, about 3-5 seconds to find the target/DMPI, and either roll in and attack, or roll off and reset. Our most difficult delivery was 10-pop CBU, since the mil setting was 290 mils, and the pipper only depressed to 300 or so. So if you didn't have a tiger error.....steep and/or fast.....and ended up being shallow or slow, you'd never get the pipper tracking across the target before hitting abort altitude. Or worse, if you failed to trim nose-down a few clicks on roll-in, and banana'd the pass as you accelerated down the chute, ending up with an early pipper across the target, a high release, and a short bomb. All great stuff there you posted, thank you for putting it up!
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Unread post05 Aug 2015, 09:50

The hardest part I reckon with our A-4 Fixed Gunsight - depressed - was that pendulum swing when making small (or trying to make small) corrections. It was unnerving at first. It was one thing to practice with practice bombs but hang a real load on and the A4G struggled to make the benchmarks, however it was all a matter of practice and experience eh.

When the pipper is really depressed it is like a bobweight on the end of a pendulum string. Roll left slightly and that pipper at the end of the pendulum goes way out to the right and then roll back and it comes back - hopefully to where you want it and then let it drift onto the target (one learnt how to control drift after a while) to be at the correct release altitude at the correst KIAS and dive angle and yeah - I'm joking.... :devil:

What was fun was doing single practice bomb passes with a briefed sight picture for the wind at altitude, to find that it was very different. This would happen a lot because the bomb range was right at the coast. Anyway one would have a real helmet fire after six PB passes always adjusting your sight picture to account for the fall of shot, and corrections and blah blah blah. Then one had to do seven 2.75 in rocket passes (either before or after) when every rocket diverged at least a little bit on the way down. After about fourteen 30 degree dives with 4.5G pullouts etc it was time for the wringer. And then because it was OFS it was likely you would do three of these sorties a day - to get your eye in. :mrgreen:

I liked the air to air banner work when the pipper was only depressed a few mils and I could get hits.

TWO graphics below are Zoomed from the earlier Graphic About Release Parameters etc beforehand + Pendulum.... And... the A-4 fixed gunsight aim circles and pipper in the middle (on the A-4 in the graphic).
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LDGPbombRelease30degParameters.gif
BankErrorDepressionGunsightAiming.gif
A-4gunsightAimCircles&pipper.jpg
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post05 Aug 2015, 14:16

spazsinbad wrote:The hardest part I reckon with our A-4 Fixed Gunsight - depressed - was that pendulum swing when making small (or trying to make small) corrections. It was unnerving at first. It was one thing to practice with practice bombs but hang a real load on and the A4G struggled to make the benchmarks, however it was all a matter of practice and experience eh.

When the pipper is really depressed it is like a bobweight on the end of a pendulum string. Roll left slightly and that pipper at the end of the pendulum goes way out to the right and then roll back and it comes back - hopefully to where you want it and then let it drift onto the target (one learnt how to control drift after a while) to be at the correct release altitude at the correst KIAS and dive angle and yeah - I'm joking.... :devil:

What was fun was doing single practice bomb passes with a briefed sight picture for the wind at altitude, to find that it was very different. This would happen a lot because the bomb range was right at the coast. Anyway one would have a real helmet fire after six PB passes always adjusting your sight picture to account for the fall of shot, and corrections and blah blah blah. Then one had to do seven 2.75 in rocket passes (either before or after) when every rocket diverged at least a little bit on the way down. After about fourteen 30 degree dives with 4.5G pullouts etc it was time for the wringer. And then because it was OFS it was likely you would do three of these sorties a day - to get your eye in. :mrgreen:

I liked the air to air banner work when the pipper was only depressed a few mils and I could get hits.

.


All good briefing stuff there. Everything on there is the same today, as it was then, as it was many decades ago. The "D10 R30" is the same thing we know as "Release Aim Point" or RAP. If at all possible, always tried to negate the crosswind, to a head/tailwind, that way the "R or L" correction wasn't needed. From there, it was easy to manage the head/tailwind using HATS, or Headwind: Add, Tailwind: Subtract, the appropriate amount of mils from your computed mils, per knot of known head/tail wind, in order to take it into account for your pipper crossing the target.

Want some real fun? The real high speed guys would try to adjust side to side of the target a few mils, in order to account for "TER kick".....the amount/distance of "kick" the Triple Ejector Rack would give the bomb as it ejected it from either the left or right side of the rack (N/A for the center of the rack obviously). Of course, you had to know your bomb sequencing for this, which bomb you were on with the rack you had selected, etc. Granted, this was the gnat's assing of gnat's assing, and guys truly believed they could adjust a mil or two left/right to take this into account, but with the pipper dot itself only 1 mil in width, and with everything else going on at the time, to be able to seriously take this into account was for nothing more than bombing for quarters, rather than for anything operationally practical :mrgreen:

In the A-10, the gun is boresighted at 41 mils. Great for air-ground work, but for air-air work, against a maneuvering target, where you have to have the three necessary parameters for a gun kill: In plane, in range, and with sufficient lead; the first two were fairly easy to accomplish, but the last one took a good amount of leading of the target to actually get rounds on target. Not that the A-10 is any sort of air-air machine, but for general BFM or defensive work, bringing the gun to bear against a maneuvering fixed-wing target would take a fair bit of work. Later HUDs came with a air-air HUD selection and funnel, which was created by inputting nominal values for a target's length, wingspan, and corner velocity, in order to generate the funnel size depiction. This was the only way to get a funnel size since there was no radar available for ranging.
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