F-35 air-to-air - Pro and Con

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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zero-one

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Unread post11 Feb 2014, 13:54

Oh it gets better,

Viper, Hornet and Rhino pilots routinly say they can do very well against Eagles.

A pretty bold statement considering that Eagle pilots spend all their time training for A-A

Viper, Hornet and Rhino pilots train for a whole lot of other stuff.

In fact, one Viper pilot said "trust me, they don't like it when we bring the knife out" reffering to Eagle drivers.

I would sure want to see the Lightning club the Raptor at times specially in a gun excercise but not to the point that Eagles are being torn apart by Vipers/Hornets/Rhinos right now.

But Id sure like to see Typhoons Rafales and Flankers on F-35 Gun sights with the trigger down on a regular basis.

AOA scale at around 50 degrees :mrgreen:
KAS around 100 knots
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XanderCrews

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Unread post11 Feb 2014, 15:06

spazsinbad wrote:"spaz out". Yeah - I know what that is like. :devil: :doh: :D :shock: 8) Poor boyblis indeed. (boybli: Schwitzer-Deutsch for 'little boy') They'll just say it is a PR stunt anyway and say 'what about the cost'. :drool: :twisted: :roll: And it took X number of years.... :mrgreen:


They are already looking more comical and desperate with each passing day. I expect something like this:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/17/world/asi ... dier-dies/

The F-111s are long gone and they still promote a plane from that the evil LM liars no longer produce, that is more expensive than the F-35. :oops: To say their little vision is kapoot would be an understatement. yet they persist...
Last edited by XanderCrews on 11 Feb 2014, 15:17, edited 1 time in total.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post11 Feb 2014, 15:14

I have loved to follow the APA crap about how F-35 is so bad fighter aircraft. They have claimed that it has poor stealth capabilities, poor kinematic performance, range, poor power and poor radar capability. They seem to use totally different standards for F-35 than for any other aircraft. Some examples:

- They claim F-35 has poor stealth characteristic while touting about PAK-FA and J-20 stealth characteristics. Funnily, according to their own assessments, F-35 has lower RCS without RAM (actually with all metal skin) than PAK-FA or J-20 with RAM. Somehow 0.001 m2 RCS is very poor for F-35 while 0.1 m2 RCS is great for PAK-FA or J-20... :roll:

- They claim that F-35 inlets have real stealth features only in X-band. Of course they have no proof for that and of course there is nothing to indicate that to be true. Actually the inlets should be very stealthy at any wavelength, just like F-22 intakes. Same with the nozzle, which they also have claimed to not be stealthy.

- They claim F-35 doesn't have large internal fuel load as it only has 18k lbs internal fuel. Of course F-22, PAK-FA, J-20 and Su-35 have great range as they have about 18-25k lbs of internal fuel. Funnily they also forget that those other aircraft are much larger and and heavier and also have two large engines instead of just one. I wonder which one will use least fuel to cover the same distance...? :roll:

- They claim that F-35 can't launch weapons at supersonic speeds as it has 'bomber doors'. Of course the second AMRAAM launched by F-35 was launched at supersonic speed and there is picture of the event clearly showing weapons bay doors open.

- They claim that F-35 doesn't have high agility. Sure, 50+ degree AoA capability shows poor agility... :roll:


Basically they are making up most of their 'criticism' for F-35. If facts don't support their view of F-35, they make up their 'facts'.

The fact is that F-35 will have some very good features for air-to-air combat, like:
- excellent stealth (both RF and IR)
- very compact size, visually about similar to F-16 and F/A-18A-D
- excellent sensors (radar, all-around IR sensors, most advanced internal IRST/FLIR, ESM)
- excellent sensor fusion making most out of those sensors
- excellent datalinking capabilities (Link-16, MADL)
- excellent range
- very good high-AoA capabilities

Otherwise it seems to have pretty competitive features, although it's definitely not nearly as fast or quickly accelerating as F-22 and probably can't match the sustained turn rate. Since all the performance data is currently said to be artificially penalized with thrust and fuel flow penalties, I think that the actual kinematic performance will be good. C- and B-models will have lower performance but still better than or equal to pretty much any other STOVL or carrier capable aircraft.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post11 Feb 2014, 15:19

Well said hornet!!

Plus they "lost" a lot of their European crowd when they said the EF couldn't beat Flankers and they were better off with F-16s.

I agree they can't keep track of all the lies they have spun and have lost their narrative.
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Gums

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Unread post11 Feb 2014, 17:08

Salute!

Well put, Fin and Zero.

Fer chrissakes, the jet is a "strike" fighter. We in the U.S. and other countries already have the supreme A2A jets.

The comment about success of the Viper and Hornet versus the Eagle and Tomcat is what I personally saw back in the early 80's. Sure, the Eagle had better nose-pointing at high AoA as did the Hornet, but we had the sustained "e" that surprised them. We could also go vertical with the Eagle and Hornet, but Eagle was better in that. Tomcat couldn't come close in that regard, but the Eagle was formidable. I once went on a vertical scissors from about 10,000 feet to maybe 25,000 or so. The Eagle ran out of smash about the same time as I did, but couldn't get the nose on me for a snap shot or Lima shot. So we came back down canopy to canopy until reaching the "floor". The de-brief was great.

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quicksilver

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Unread post12 Feb 2014, 01:50

Viper, Hornet, Eagle and some others...

BFMing mostly about the pilot/aircraft combination assuming similarly configured jets. Hornet best nose pointer, Eagle close second when flown by an experienced driver. Viper easily best energy addition rates but limiter a liability in a pressure/slower fight.
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mixelflick

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Unread post13 Feb 2014, 18:47

quicksilver wrote:Viper, Hornet, Eagle and some others...

BFMing mostly about the pilot/aircraft combination assuming similarly configured jets. Hornet best nose pointer, Eagle close second when flown by an experienced driver. Viper easily best energy addition rates but limiter a liability in a pressure/slower fight.


This is the first I'm hearing about the Eagle and nose pointing authority?

I always thought its strengths were speed, range, radar and missile carrying capability. Regardless, it's still one of the best A2A platforms out there, especially with AIM-9x/AESA and AMRAAM!
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zero-one

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Unread post13 Feb 2014, 18:59

I always saw the eagle as a speed, acceleration, climb rate king and second to the Viper in maintaining/Sustaining energy through tight turns.

Never saw it as the best tight turner or nose pointer.

Any word from Eagle drivers out there
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Unread post14 Feb 2014, 00:22

Note my reference to the pilot factor. Huge difference between the younger guys and the older guys (which is not new anywhere in any jet) but it became more pronounced over time, as there was less BFMing in favor of primary mission employment (i.e. BVR).
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Unread post14 Feb 2014, 05:32

Salute!

Remember, the Eagle ( early ones) were limited to 7.33 gees. Corner velocity was about what we Vipers had, but we had another 2 gees!!! Just work the math to see turn radius and turn rate using 360 knots from zero to 5,000 feet. For those altitudes, we could maintain 9 gees until we ran outta gas.

Down below 200 knots or so, the Eagle had better nose pointing due to no AoA limiter, although we had full roll authority without fear of departing. I also have to point out that we had knife fights down to 150 knots or so, which ain't good more than once, but it wasn't actual combat. In Red Flag we never got anywhere near that speed and did really well getting in and getting out.

The Stubby seems to have a good sustained turn rate at medium altitude and better nose-pointing capability than the Viper. I don't have the flight control laws, but there are prolly some limits the pilot must deal with, as did we.

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Unread post14 Feb 2014, 17:02

Gums, have you flown the F-15/16? I seem to recall you flew the Viper, but wasn't sure on the Eagle.

Given your knowledge (and it is VAST), how do you feel the F-35 is going to measure up to existing and future threats? It just didn't seem logical to build a 5th gen jet, with A2A performance "no worse than the F-16". Hell, the F-16 is a great jet but challenged considerably by current Flankers! Never mind the newer threats.

Any input would be most appreciated...
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Corsair1963

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Unread post15 Feb 2014, 03:36

Gums wrote:Salute!

Remember, the Eagle ( early ones) were limited to 7.33 gees. Corner velocity was about what we Vipers had, but we had another 2 gees!!! Just work the math to see turn radius and turn rate using 360 knots from zero to 5,000 feet. For those altitudes, we could maintain 9 gees until we ran outta gas.

Down below 200 knots or so, the Eagle had better nose pointing due to no AoA limiter, although we had full roll authority without fear of departing. I also have to point out that we had knife fights down to 150 knots or so, which ain't good more than once, but it wasn't actual combat. In Red Flag we never got anywhere near that speed and did really well getting in and getting out.

The Stubby seems to have a good sustained turn rate at medium altitude and better nose-pointing capability than the Viper. I don't have the flight control laws, but there are prolly some limits the pilot must deal with, as did we.

Gums.....


FYI The Hornet, Super Hornet, and F-35C have no problem exceeding the 7.5G Limit imposed during peace time operation. Which, is used to extent the service life of the aircraft. One that will likely not to be adhered to during times of major conflict. I am sure that is also the case with the F-15.........Just saying. :wink:
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Unread post15 Feb 2014, 05:18

Salute!

Never flew the Eagle.

I fully understand the gee limits of the other jets.

The Viper had the 9 gee limit coded in the computer, and at corner velocity we could get there until our AoA was above 15 degrees. Then the curve went down until at 27 degrees AoA we were at 1 gee.

The thing that was so neat was unless hauling pig iron we could pull or roll without a worry. The jet gave us all it could while maintaining energy.

Don't know the corner velocity of the Stubby, but the thing looks fairly capable for its designed mission. And when the folks say performance like a Hornet or a Viper, that should be just fine. Go do the math and see what gee and speed do WRT turn radius and turn rate.

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Unread post15 Feb 2014, 05:23

Corsair1963 wrote:
Gums wrote:Salute!

Remember, the Eagle ( early ones) were limited to 7.33 gees. Corner velocity was about what we Vipers had, but we had another 2 gees!!! Just work the math to see turn radius and turn rate using 360 knots from zero to 5,000 feet. For those altitudes, we could maintain 9 gees until we ran outta gas.

Down below 200 knots or so, the Eagle had better nose pointing due to no AoA limiter, although we had full roll authority without fear of departing. I also have to point out that we had knife fights down to 150 knots or so, which ain't good more than once, but it wasn't actual combat. In Red Flag we never got anywhere near that speed and did really well getting in and getting out.

The Stubby seems to have a good sustained turn rate at medium altitude and better nose-pointing capability than the Viper. I don't have the flight control laws, but there are prolly some limits the pilot must deal with, as did we.

Gums.....


FYI The Hornet, Super Hornet, and F-35C have no problem exceeding the 7.5G Limit imposed during peace time operation. Which, is used to extent the service life of the aircraft. One that will likely not to be adhered to during times of major conflict. I am sure that is also the case with the F-15.........Just saying. :wink:


Those G Limits are design limits which should never be exceeded even in combat. After all what good is a bent airplane, except as a parts machine for the rest of the fleet.
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Unread post15 Feb 2014, 13:49

I recall a Desert Storm engagement where the F-15 pilot said he took 12g's.

Amazing, though I dunno if I'd try that all these years later!
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