MiG-31 vs F-16 - BVR engagement

Agreed, it will never be a fair fight but how would the F-16 match up against the ... ?
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CheckSix

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Unread post01 Dec 2004, 08:12

@Dammerung:

At Full Afterburner, F-16 exhausts its fuel in about 8mins. MiG-31 has 16,5 tons of fuel onboard, and proved to fly some 2000kms at mach 2,5+ ;-)

It's a strategic interceptor.
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Dammerung

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Unread post01 Dec 2004, 16:57

That's 15000~kg, not much more than the Su-27, I seriously doubt that the MiG-31 could fly THAT long at top speed. Maybe 5 minutes, but Especially considering the nature of MiGs in general(MiG-29 has about 3 minutes at full burner before it's done). I just checked FAS.org and it's max Range is 1250km... If I had to guess, Once the MiG gets you on his radar, you're probably toast. I would think it would intercept BOMBERS however, at speeds near mach 1.5... If it could cruise that far and that fast, the SR-71 wouldn't look so great.
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Skyjock

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Unread post01 Dec 2004, 17:18

It's very interesting to read the various views on 1v1 here...and it's also
almost inconcievable that ANYONE would salvo 4 or more missiles at any one target, thus opening himself up for attack with nothing left!

Here, however, is a fact no one has mentioned yet: During Desert Storm, an attack "package" observed an Iraqi MiG-25 coming their way, and they chased it. It outran them easily, and they returned to heading. The MiG reversed, and nailed an F/A-18 Hornet...
which the Navy denied for many years after.

Speed CAN be very useful, and many times far better than a knife-fighting ability...remember the P-38 vs. A6M?

I do NOT know what missiles the MiG used... anybody knows?

Dan S.
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CheckSix

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Unread post01 Dec 2004, 17:51

@Dammerung

1250km Interception range supersonically.
Su-27 has 9,4 tons
F-16 has 3,2 tons
MiG-31: 16,5 tons

MiG-31s top speed is mach 2,83 with in case of emergency mach3+

FAS.org gives the numbers and engine desigantions for the elder MiG-25.
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elp

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Unread post01 Dec 2004, 18:15

BVR. Be interesting. MiG-31 has some reach. Remember though, that:

-RU BVR so far has a bad combat record.

-What makes the F-16 great is also a great maintenance community. RuAF enlisted force is in the dumps. Expecting all that fancy gear on a MiG-31 to work when needed is a reach, espeially when the guy responsible for maintaining its avionics is more concerned with his second job as a taxi driver :lol: Good luck. I wouldn't want to bet my life flying on a maintenance coummity like that.

WVR: Yet another jet with crap visibility from the cockpit to be matched up against an F-16? :lol: :lol: When you have problems looking at your rear hemisphere because of the cockpit setup,.... in WVR..... you are going to be in serious trouble. Also the MiG-31 is just a bit smaller than a shorty version of a 737 ( 100, 500, and 600 series ).... :lol: :lol:

Tally! :lol:
- ELP -
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ACSheva

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Unread post10 Feb 2005, 03:29

RU BVR so far has a bad combat record


what record?
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kubam4a1

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Unread post10 Feb 2005, 09:38

If we have C/D model without either APG-68V9 or APG-80 radar, and without AIM-120 AMMRAMs, it has no chance against MiG-31. MiG's radar has a range of about 120 kms, and Viper's - only 80 kms(but Viper has smaller RCS of course). Secondly, when using AIM-7, Viper must fly a straight way until it hits MiG-31. Foxhound can attack four targets at one time, and then escape, because AA-9 are self-homing with active radar. Thirdly, MiG-31 is much more faster than Viper.
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nastle2000

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Unread post10 Feb 2005, 17:45

I agree w/o the AIM-120 despite its agility the viper has no chance against the MIG.
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Pumpkin

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Unread post10 Feb 2005, 22:25

ACSheva wrote:
RU BVR so far has a bad combat record


what record?


I believe elp was referring to the Ethiopian-Eritrean conflict. The BVR fights between the Su-27 & MiG-29 (piloted by Russian and Ukrainian mercenaries) where 'salvo' of R-27/AA-10 missile fired by both side failed. And confirmed kills were made only by the R-73/AA-11.
Last edited by Pumpkin on 12 Feb 2005, 00:46, edited 1 time in total.
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kubam4a1

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Unread post11 Feb 2005, 10:35

But R-33 is much more better than R-27. It's active-radar homing. MiG-31 can fire missles at four target one time while MiG-29A/Su-27SK only at one... R-33 is similar to Phoenix, but Foxhound has also AMRAMMskis. Finally, Foxhound was designed not to fight with F-16Cs, but to shot down cruise missiles.
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Pumpkin

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Unread post11 Feb 2005, 11:20

kubam4a1 wrote:But R-33 is much more better than R-27. It's active-radar homing. MiG-31 can fire missles at four target one time while MiG-29A/Su-27SK only at one... R-33 is similar to Phoenix, but Foxhound has also AMRAMMskis. Finally, Foxhound was designed not to fight with F-16Cs, but to shot down cruise missiles.


kubam4a1, I guess our point was...

specification is what manufacturers claimed the product can perform. Record on the other hand is how the product actually performed. It is by no means certain of course. But, it is the track record of the product.

In a nut shell, it is not combat proven. {EDIT} Or in the case of R-27, it was combat proven, it ain't lethal in that particular conflict.

cheers,
Last edited by Pumpkin on 11 Feb 2005, 17:05, edited 1 time in total.
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kubam4a1

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Unread post11 Feb 2005, 11:28

I understand,
And I hope it'll never be combat proven....
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renatohm

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Unread post23 Feb 2005, 04:12

Well, the R-33/R-37 have well over 100 km range, over twice the range of the AMRAAM. The SBI-16 Zaslon AESA (Active Ellectronically Scanned Array) radar has far more range than the Viper's radars (except maybe the block 60). So, in a BVR (Beyond Visual Range) battle, the Foxhound wins, if not by shootdown, by evasion. The same happened with the Tomcat + Phoenix during Desert Storm: the Iraqis simply evaded the Tomcat, which was unable to score a single kill - although we may consider these 'almost engagement' as victories, due to the fact that no fighter hassled the units scorted by the F-14. Also, the R-77 has a longer (publicly stated) range than the AMRAAM, specially if we consider the better kinematics of the Foxhound, which might not require AB (AfterBurner) to go supersonic.

In WVR (Within Visual Range) arena, no discussion, the Viper wins.
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MATMACWC

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Unread post23 Feb 2005, 04:50

And what about the F-16 with only drop tanks to unload on a MIG, and the MIG with the Supercalifragilousexpialidocious missile??? Please folks, reality is reality. F-16 have AMRAAMS, MIGS suck big ol' donkey.....well, you know. Lets not tie any fake hands here..........

Up and Out
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CheckSix

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Unread post23 Feb 2005, 12:30

amraam range drops to 5 miles, chasing a MiG-31.
In one to one engagement, I'd favour a MiG-31M.
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