Dutch F-35A F-001 First Flight

Production milestones, roll-outs, test flights, service introduction and other milestones.
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m

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Unread post17 Aug 2012, 04:42

Official, so conspiracy theories as far a I can see …
Much ado about nothing, Shakespeare :wink:
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rexvlieger

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Unread post17 Aug 2012, 22:17

No hoax. Keeping it under wraps for the pending elections, it seems.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... th-375582/
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joost

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Unread post20 Aug 2012, 10:31

http://www.nu.nl/binnenland/2888297/ned ... chten.html

Defensie was terughoudend met het melden van de testvluchten. Er werd weinig belang aan gehecht en ook de lastige politieke situatie speelde een rol.

" DoD was reluctant to announce the test flights. They didn't value it as very importnat and also the tricky political situation played a role"
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Unread post20 Aug 2012, 11:26

First Dutch JSF jet fighter undergoes tests in the US 20 August 2012

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2 ... ter_un.php

"The first Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) jet destined for the Dutch market underwent three test flights in the first half of this month, the defence ministry has confirmed to news agency ANP.

The test flights took place close to the Lockheed Martin factory in Texas and went off well, ANP said.

The agency says the ministry was not forthcoming with more information about the test flights, partly due to the growing lack of political support for the project.

According to Nos news, the first test plane will be handed over to the Dutch authorities in September for intensive trials involving Dutch pilots. The second test plane will be delivered next year.

The jets are supposed to replace the Netherlands’ ageing fleet of F-16 fighter planes but a majority of MPs oppose the purchase. The next cabinet will take a decision on whether or not to go ahead with the deal."

That's it.
RAN FAA A4G: http://tinyurl.com/ctfwb3t http://tinyurl.com/ccmlenr http://www.youtube.com/user/bengello/videos
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fang

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Unread post20 Aug 2012, 15:02

Thanks for the info. spaz & joost.
That's weird, in case the politician against the JSF in NL will make the government pull out of the program, what they'll do with the two jets (AN-1 and AN-2)?
Sell them as second hand?
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m

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Unread post20 Aug 2012, 18:18

It’s quite simple. They will stay in the project or won’t sell these F35’s, but will keep them in case of the shelf.

Why? Politicians voted for withdrawing out of the development phase.
What they did not; voting for buying another jet, instead of the F35.
That’s never been the case and has never been the question.

Not even that, a new selection for a jet type was voted against by members of parliament.
So, what’s the implication of this? Two possibilities: no jet at all, or the F35

D66, as well as pvda, did not even mention, not buying the F35.
They proposed … pulling out of the development phase (and later on buying from the shelf)
D66: even too much money already has been invested for not buying the F35 (in that case, of the shelf)


Pulling out sounds swell for voters, but what parties did not mention: in case they really want to buy from the shelf, the development and production money has already been paid.
(when this can be arranged as a payment, in case an order of the shelf?)

Why pulling out won’t happen? Claims from levelpartners, like Italy and Norway will be sky high.
This is the European footprint and has nothing to do with the US/LM.
Italy invested in a production line, based on also Dutch F35’s, as well as Norwegian F35’s.
Withdrawing means a heavy impact on the Italian production to produce cost effective (Italy itself dropped to 90 F35’s as well).
So, in case the Dutch would withdraw, they will have to bleed for this.

As ex. general Berlijn said, these claims, in the worst case, will cost the Dutch billions of dollars.


Pulling out of the IOT&E Phase?
Ridiculous and won’t happen either. All the invested money would have been lost.
Secondly, in case of buying of the shelf, the Dutch would have do an IOT phase by their own as well (even when buying another type an IOT phase will have to be done)

Selling these F35A? Who will buy them? No one is going to buy a (second hand) F35 for that amount of money. May be half the money? Even than the jet is too expensive.


It’s nothing more than a political show and election talk. They can’t afford losing some €1.4 billion invested money, plus in the worst case may be some one or two billion dollars (claims)

One really think they really will risk this? Some 15.000 jobs in the aviation industry, plus the related jobs in the aviation industry that does not depend on this industry in particulair.


Acquisition budget
We did invest in the development phase, production phase and the IOT&E phase.
The minister of defence reserved €4.5 billion, this year, for acquisition of the F35.

What he did not tell, €365.1 million of this budget has already been invested in and next years every year, a further amount of money will be invested in acquisition.
All members of parliament know this as well. Either they don’t mention this in their election campaigns.

F35: Payments €4.5 billion
Till 2010: €137.3 million
2011: €124.4 million
2012: €103.8 > Total: €365.1 million
2013: € 49.0 million
2014: €55.0 million
2015: €61.0 million
2016: €155.0 million
From 2017: €3,814.5 million
Total: €4,500.0 million

An order, in 2015, 10 F35A’s: at that time €530.1 million already will have been paid
Till 2017: €638.6 million will have been paid
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fang

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Unread post21 Aug 2012, 06:43

OK m, thank you, I got it.
What I don't get is why all the partners who made order so far (UK, NL, Italy, Norway, Turkey) going to the IOT&E phase?
Like they say, first we'll try these 2 jets for a while and then we'll see!
See what? see that there is no other alternative?
How come three well expiriend countries (US, Israel and Japan) decided from the beginning to buy it no matter what and in the same time the others wanna wait and see?
I guess the answers not concern US, LM or even the F-35, it's all internal politics of these countries.
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joost

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Unread post21 Aug 2012, 07:43

Hi Fanq,

Its quite simple: there are two seperate trails: participating in the project as an industry and replacing the current F-16 fleet with a new fighter.

Some political parties raised question on why we do participate in the first place and get our hands tied. The irony is that the Labour party which is opposing the participation, was actually the party which has been the driving force in 1996 to join the JSF project (and the A380 project), after Fokker was going bankrupt.

My opinion is (like M stated) that abandoning the IOT&E phase now is ridiculous and I guess is that there are some big penalties when you bail out after 10 years. But I guess the consequenses are not well known by everybody who is asking for bail out.

I think the Dutch will not bail out in the end as soon as the elections are over there will be some debate agin, but when all information is gathered they will not dare to bail out.

The other item is buying new jets. Here I also think the JSF has the best cards: the Air Force wants them, we have an air force system completely aimed at the US and there is not that much on the market anyway. Maybe the order will be delayed and the number of jets will be a bit lower. But in the end they will buy the JSF anyway I think. These kind of debates are a repetition of earlier fighter competitions, where the labour party plead for the Jaguar and Mirage instead of F-16s. So the whole debate is a lot of politics wth no real consequenses in my eyes
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m

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Unread post21 Aug 2012, 12:44

@ Fang, Joost,

Only the US, UK and the Netherlands joined the IOT&E phase
Italy intended to join the IOT&E phase, but for some reason they did not.
(May be because they had to invest a lot of money in a production line as well?)

As far as I know no other levelpartner joined this phase.
Although Australia may be will do so? Mentioned in a letter of the Dutch min. of Defense (2012)


Don’t know why, explanation, other levelpartners did not join this phase?
Partners who did not join the IOT&E phase will have to do an IOT phase by their own.
Doesn’t matter what jet a country will buy, any type needs a IOT phase to implement a jet in a Airforce of a country (the NH90, Dutch, is in a IOT phase as well).

May be a reason why other level partners did not join?
In a early stage a levelpartner was forced to buy at least two F35’s when joining this phase. Two F35’s was a minimum for joining.
Speculation, but may be a reason why levelpartners did not like to order F35’s that early already?

As well the political issue. In case of Canada for example, ordering two F35’s would have made the discussion quite difficult I suppose.

As you will probably understand, in case of the Dutch, the political struggle at the time ordering the second F35 was a (voters) show as well.
Not ordering the second one, would have mend selling the first F35A and be being kicked out of the IOT&E phase. Plus the invested and to invest money would have been lost as well.
Not that strange the parties who “seemed” against, later on still backed the second order.


Although I do have doubts an IOT phase by the Dutch themselves really will cost that much money as the min. of Defense claimed, an IOT phase will cost a lot of money.
Either what he said is true, the Dutch don’t have the expertise and knowledge like the UK and the US posses.
Joining for the Dutch means, they will get more and better results than they would get by an IOT phase by their own.

Another advantage of joining this phase, at the momentum of ordering, the Dutch will have a lot more inside information of the F35.
Not specifically tactically or flying the jet, but very important operating the F35.
Costs, operating, maintenance, spares, infrastructure and etc.

Any information, results, figures or whatever, the Dutch is stricly forbidden to share with others.
Information, results of the IOT&E phase can only be obtained from the US.
In case ordering with Norway (or Belgium), the Dutch can't share results or information with these partners. They will have to ask the US.


The F35 will be ordered much later than intended by the Dutch (delivery, operational than was promised by LM as well)
But what can be seen as positive because of this, in stead of negative?

Probably end of this year 5 pilots will start their training, plus some 20 maintenance personnel
When the first 10 F35’s will arrive in 2019 (list ordering F35’s), during six years, maintenance personnel will be trained and expertise will be obtained.

The KLU has never been in a situation, having that much of experience and so many maintenance personnel trained, during six years, at the moment a first jet type will be delivered.
(Depends on how one will see this: “A glass half empty, or a glass half filled” )



Joost, in case of the F16, at that time, this wasn’t really hat much different. A min. of Defense (pvda), Vredeling, ordered the F16.
As well, for instance Stemerdinck, an ex min. of Defence (pvda), preferred specifically US equipment.

Ex. prime minister Kok (pvda) signed the development phase of the F35.
Some years ago, a (secret) pvda report was published. In this report one can read, at that time, 2002, the F35 was seen as a replacement for the F16.

The Dutch do have the impression, within the Defence forces, pressure or lobbying mainly comes from the right wing.
Either, what a lot of Dutch do not know, the main lobby group within in the Dutch Defense forces, for decades, are pvda members.
Did read a dissertation (PhD) about this subject. (Forgot the title, will have to search for a link where to find)

The pvda has always played a dual, or obscure role. What seemed or seems for voters, did not mean this is or was reality as well.
Like magicians, they show the left hand, but you need to watch what the right hand is doing.
There is no party in the Netherlands that played the game in all these years that well.
(Although I don’t trust them that much as the party is right now with Samson)

What are they suggesting to the public? They give the impression, by leaving the development phase the F35 will not be ordered.
Are they? No they only propose leaving this phase (and ordering from the shelf)
So, in case leaving the development phase, the F35 still can be ordered (development end production cost are already paid).
As we would say in Dutch: "They show the voter/public a sausage"

Will they leave the phase, in case elected?
No, they always can tell their voters, we are in a coalition now, there is no other possibility, but we were against.
Actually D66 plays the same role.


An interesting article about the F35 by Dieuwertje Kuijpers, april 2012
She writes about the problems of the F16 after delivery as well: oscillation, flame out etc.
http://teldersstichting.vvd.nl/nieuws/2 ... ke-fighter
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Unread post21 Aug 2012, 13:26

Hi M, I completely share your vision and recognize a lot what you write. In the end the F-35 will be ordered and the decision was in fact made a long time ago by joining the development. No turning back now and no real alternatives available (which fill the requirements of the RNLAF and political international agenda).
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neptune

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Unread post21 Aug 2012, 15:14

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2 ... ter_un.php

First Dutch JSF jet fighter undergoes tests in the US
Monday 20 August 2012

The first Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) jet destined for the Dutch market underwent three test flights in the first half of this month, the defence ministry has confirmed to news agency ANP.

The test flights took place close to the Lockheed Martin factory in Texas and went off well, ANP said.

...

According to Nos news, the first test plane will be handed over to the Dutch authorities in September for intensive trials involving Dutch pilots. The second test plane will be delivered next year.

The jets are supposed to replace the Netherlands’ ageing fleet of F-16 fighter planes but a majority of MPs oppose the purchase. ..
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spazsinbad

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Unread post21 Aug 2012, 15:25

'neptune' your post has been posted already further up the page.
RAN FAA A4G: http://tinyurl.com/ctfwb3t http://tinyurl.com/ccmlenr http://www.youtube.com/user/bengello/videos
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Unread post21 Aug 2012, 16:02

spazsinbad wrote:'neptune' your post has been posted already further up the page.


It must be the Dutch one.! :-)
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fang

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Unread post21 Aug 2012, 18:58

The General Court on Tuesday, 21 August 2012 decided to carry out research into the costs for the Netherlands to stop participating in the military development Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) of the U.S. aircraft manufacturer Lockheed Martin
http://www.blikopnieuws.nl/bericht/1485 ... oject.html

And in En
http://translate.google.co.il/translate ... oject.html
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Unread post21 Aug 2012, 19:55

fang wrote:The General Court on Tuesday, 21 August 2012 decided to carry out research into the costs for the Netherlands to stop participating in the military development Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) of the U.S. aircraft manufacturer Lockheed Martin...


I hope they make the right decision. The dutch people will expect a good value for their money. If they re-select the F-35, it will be a well appreciated endorsement. :)

As the third allied pilot with the two Brit Sqdrn. Ldrs., it will be interesting to see who the Dutch will have qualified for the F-35 evaluation flights. At present we have two 03s, an Air Force Capt. and a Navy Lt. and the 06, Col. Art Tomassetti, the former X-35 pilot and current vice commander of the 33rd Fighter Wing at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla. :)
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