The Raptor , and fighting against Angle of Attack turning

Anything goes, as long as it is about the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
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phantasm

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Unread post31 Jul 2012, 06:17

What's up :D?

I've watched this site for ages, but have had this question even longer- time to bite the bullet on that one xD

Something I've always noted- is that Angle of Attack matters in a fight. In a One-circle dogfight WVR, when you and your opponent end up in a sustained turning fight- if he has a superior turning rate, that's one thing. However, there's something else that's been on my mind for years as well.

The Flanker and variants of Mr Flanker, are known for the Pugachev's Cobra, a post-stall maneuver. The Raptor can do the Cobra as well

- but as far as Mr Flanker goes- when Mr Flanker want's some massive Angle of Attack on his vertical plane(to the airplane), they deactivate the Alpha Limiter, and then pull on the stick hard(if they do it past a certain point, it doesn't work- but they have to pull to the limit to get to that short area where it doesn't pan out)


and then the Plane will rotate about it's axis on a dime, regardless of the direction it's momentum is carrying it.

I have no clue how the F-22 does it, as I've never heard of US fighters being able to Deactivate the Alpha Limiter. - Well, having a Alpha limiter, for that matter.(The AOA limiter is NOT the same thing as a G limiter- however, in some planes if one is disabled, the other is as well-bad logic in m eyes).

So, I've always wondered- once you get into a turning fight, how would our 4th gen fighters ever handle that? I guess get out of the 1 circle.....

Same thing with the Raptor- The Raptor can turn with the best of them, but shouldn't this trick involving AOA be something that's ...implemented?
Forgive my ignorance on this matter..

I just saw some articles talking about the Raptor being matched by the Typhoon in a turning contest. Hah...let's say that is the case. If the Raptor could disable it's AOA limiter, he pops the switch, pulls the nose- now he's aiming at the other plane, and during this he lights up with the 20 mm.

No matter how tight your turning circle is- this should work. Of course, it has to get to WVR- but worse comes to worse, post stall tricks like this should cinch the cake. if you're turning vertical, horizontal- whatever the case being able to suddenly move your plane nose quite quickly in this manner, to a gunwalk- should dominate. Well, Off-Boresight + JHMCS probably is the other side of this coin,but anyway..

How would a Raptor driver handle the above AOA trick? Could they mimic it?


Thoughts? I apologize for any ignorance i'm showing on the matter
Also, I bet a lot of the above many of you are familiar with, so I apologize for the refresher on this.
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bigjku

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Unread post31 Jul 2012, 14:08

Not a fighter pilot but as most fights will never be a one on one fight I would have to imagine that most of these moves might get you away from one fighter only to be killed by everyone else in the area since you are now not moving.
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wrightwing

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Unread post31 Jul 2012, 14:10

Nose pointing and turning are entirely different things. When a plane engages in a high AOA/post stall maneuver, the direction of travel hasn't changed. What is happening though, is that the plane is losing energy/altitude rapidly in trade off. It's much better to maintain energy, when one isn't flying in airshows, as an aircraft with a low energy state becomes an easy target.
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munny

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Unread post31 Jul 2012, 15:16

The plane would have already lost energy slowing down enough so the high AOA maneuever can be performed and so the pilot doesn't get squished when he performs it. Flankers can't pull extremely high aoa turns at speed, in fact they can't pull them as turns at slow speed without their nose immediately pointing toward the ground either.
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wrightwing

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Unread post31 Jul 2012, 15:29

munny wrote:The plane would have already lost energy slowing down enough so the high AOA maneuever can be performed and so the pilot doesn't get squished when he performs it. Flankers can't pull extremely high aoa turns at speed, in fact they can't pull them as turns at slow speed without their nose immediately pointing toward the ground either.


Exactly, nobody wants to engage in combat at <300 Kts, if they can avoid it.
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sirsapo

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Unread post31 Jul 2012, 19:50

The F-22 has probably one of the smartest flight computer logic of any airplane flying right now. The reason you don't hear of Raptor pilots "disabling the AoA limiter" is because the Raptor does not have a hard AoA limit. The Raptors flight control laws combine both rate-desired and G-desired pilot inputs based on the flight condition. Above a certain speed, if the pilot pulls back on the stick, he is asking for a certain G from the airplane, and the FCS tries to give it to him (sts). As the jet slows however, the flight controls seamlessly transition to a rate based system where if the pilot pulls on the stick he is asking for a certain pitch rate. This is why a Raptor pilot can effortlessly perform all those fancy high-AoA maneuvers you see at an airshow.

Like everyone else has said, however, those maneuvers have much less utility in actual air combat than you may think. Nose pointing like that is not cheap in terms of energy, and you won't see much hard maneuvering immediately following such high AoA flight. And there is no easier target for an AIM-9X than a giant Flanker flopping around at 100kts...
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icemaverick

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Unread post01 Aug 2012, 00:49

Pugachev's Cobra is mainly an airshow maneuver from what I understand. As the others have said, it would have very little utility in real combat. It has never been used in actual combat and I doubt that it ever will. Besides, I'm not sure a combat-configured Flanker would even be able to perform that maneuver. Even if it is used in combat, the Cobra is a last-ditch effort. Chances are that if you you're losing that badly against a good pilot, you'd never even have the chance to attempt it because the guy will take you out long before you can!
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cywolf32

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Unread post01 Aug 2012, 05:51

" I'll hit the brakes and he will fly right by... " game over for you buddy.
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svenphantom

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Unread post01 Aug 2012, 06:59

cywolf32 wrote:" I'll hit the brakes and he will fly right by... " game over for you buddy.

But it worked for an F-4 pilot in Vietnam...it can't be....ITS NOT TRUE!!! But in all seriousness, putting yourself at a low speed usually means death for fight pilots.
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phantasm

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Unread post04 Aug 2012, 06:32

munny wrote:The plane would have already lost energy slowing down enough so the high AOA maneuever can be performed and so the pilot doesn't get squished when he performs it. Flankers can't pull extremely high aoa turns at speed, in fact they can't pull them as turns at slow speed without their nose immediately pointing toward the ground either.


..That's interesting.
That also sounds slower than the speeds they can do tat it. IIRC, as long as , a Flanker is under 400 knots or so, they'd be allright G wise-
And when they rotate the plane sideways then pop the limiter and pull, their nose should rotate fine as long a they aren't trying to do it at like 20 knots.
(more like under 200 or 250 i'd think)



" I'll hit the brakes and he will fly right by... " game over for you buddy.

No relation at all, hah. I'm referring to 1 circle turning fights where you don't have JHMCS, and off bore sight missles, or a massively superior turning radius at slow speed


Nose pointing and turning are entirely different things. When a plane engages in a high AOA/post stall maneuver, the direction of travel hasn't changed. What is happening though, is that the plane is losing energy/altitude rapidly in trade off. It's much better to maintain energy, when one isn't flying in airshows, as an aircraft with a low energy state becomes an easy target.
Very true.
Thats what i was highlighting above, actually.

Regarding cornering speed...hm
Funny, I recall seeing a very good article about a ....falcon pilot learning how to fly the Hornet, and noting the Falcon turned best at about 400 knots, while the Hornet did it's best at 250 to about a hundred more IIRC.... FOUND IT! Don't recall it being on this sit,e but at least i found it.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/air-warfar ... ctive.html

300 -350 for the Hornet, and 350 - 400 for the Falcon. I am aware this is one pilots opinion.

if you get into a sustained turning fight, it's going to come down to a low-energy state though- and once you're in the coupe-hundred knots, and trying to out turn the other plane- pointing your nose straight at him should make the difference.


[quote=svenphantom]But in all seriousness, putting yourself at a low speed usually means death for fight pilots.[/quote]True, but i'd expect Mr Flanker to resort to this once...(its situational , i know) the furball commences and all the BVR missiles got expended, and there's still two sides with a LOT of planes left- for those whom it comes to guns WVR-style, you're not putting yourself at low speed really. True, the manuever is useless at speeds above 400 or so, but turning hard continously is still going to happen at some point in fighter combat 1-circle style , i'd think.


[quote=sirsapo]The F-22 has probably one of the smartest flight computer logic of any airplane flying right now. The reason you don't hear of Raptor pilots "disabling the AoA limiter" is because the Raptor does not have a hard AoA limit. The Raptors flight control laws combine both rate-desired and G-desired pilot inputs based on the flight condition. Above a certain speed, if the pilot pulls back on the stick, he is asking for a certain G from the airplane, and the FCS tries to give it to him (sts). As the jet slows however, the flight controls seamlessly transition to a rate based system where if the pilot pulls on the stick he is asking for a certain pitch rate. This is why a Raptor pilot can effortlessly perform all those fancy high-AoA maneuvers you see at an airshow.

Like everyone else has said, however, those maneuvers have much less utility in actual air combat than you may think. Nose pointing like that is not cheap in terms of energy, and you won't see much hard maneuvering immediately following such high AoA flight. And there is no easier target for an AIM-9X than a giant Flanker flopping around at 100kts...[/quote] im going to take a wild guess that the thrust vectoring is what lets the Raptor really ...get somewhere when you're pulling for that rate-based system.


Although, this makes me remember that the Flanker can get up to 120 degrees AOA with the Limiter off- ..(it's only been done vertically to my knowledge, to this extend of a AOA)..

if he gets to 100kts, he's dead meat-or he blew it somewhere, or he did the actual cobra in a vertical turning fight against some plane who he hopefully had his nose on for a burst(actually if they keep on pulling, it becomes the high AOA maneuver known as the Bell-and they'd do the bell I'd think, rather than do the Cobra itself in combat)

Fair enough though- still seems like if you are in danger of getting out turned, some more AOA instead of a sharper turning rate give you the nose shot. Of course there's other ways to go about handling a knife fight.


Here's one for the test: Massive Furball fight- let's say in this fight you have Western fighters fighting left and right- one particular driver has used up his AIM-9's, still has gun ammo- and is out turning a Flanker(Fulcrums can pop the AOA as well, but they can't achieve the AOA), when mr Flanker decides he's had enough of the turning-rate game, he's at 400 knots he knows a plane is onto him, so he pops the AOA limiter, and now he's pointing his nose across the circle, tracers ready. If you're the plane truing to outturn him , what are your options if you're in a Raptor?

I figure if you were in a teen fighter, you're in trouble /it's time to go vert and stop the turning fight.

.Perhaps what'd play out would be similar to what happens when Harriers use their vectoring in turning fights. it's not the same as this- but it's not TOO far different.
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Unread post04 Aug 2012, 12:23

[quote="phantasm"][quote="munny"]The plane would have already lost energy slowing down enough so the high AOA maneuever can be performed and so the pilot doesnThat is a pretty desperate move by Mr Flanker to pull a high AOA maneuver at 400knots (a lot of G involved in that as well) at an opponent out turning it- Mr Flanker's nose will have to lead the turning opposing aircraft to get a viable firing solution. If Mr Flanker's nose ends up only lagging or getting its nose just onto body of the opposing aircraft, its bullets will most likely miss the opposing aircraft and Mr Falnker will have expended a lot of energy doing the high AOA maneuver. If I were a teen series aircraft, I would go vertical at that point (as you alluded in your post) and dive down to the drill the brains out of the floundering Mr Flanker with red hot 20mm projectiles.

An interesting Youtube video you should look at is Colonel Fornfof's comments on the Indian Air Force's particpation in Red Flag (?2008). A lot of what he says in the video are not factually correct but he has a good point about how a F15 or F16 pilot can potentially take advantage of an opponent trying to pull a high AOA maneuver in a dogfight.
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cola

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Unread post04 Aug 2012, 12:32

Indeed.
Planes turn only as good as the momentary energy state permits.
The higher the SEP, the pilot has a better control of the engagement, as noted and exploited by USAF.
Cheers, Cola
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wrightwing

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Unread post07 Aug 2012, 18:49

Nobody is going to pull a Cobra at 400kts. You'd rip the wings off, and kill the pilot from the G forces.

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