UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

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spazsinbad

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Unread post07 May 2012, 03:04

Another long discussion of the worth of 'cats 'n traps' and the F-35C for the UK over the long term and stategic-wise and it will make the USN very happy indeedy. :D

'Cats and Traps': Launching the Carrier Debate in the Right Direction? By Dr Lee Willett, Senior Research Fellow, Maritime Studies, RUSI

http://www.rusi.org/analysis/commentary ... B2B64D19C/

"Media debate on the UK's carrier programme is focusing on the jets, rather than the ships they land on. Central to this discussion is 'cats and traps', the launch and recovery system, which drives the choice of aircraft. Critics who say that this will cost too much overlook the long-term strategic value it will add...."

A very long post at the URL.
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Unread post07 May 2012, 03:17

I just wish they would makeup their minds already...
Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin
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Unread post07 May 2012, 04:19

Yep. :D But even when they do it won't finish there... Here is another RUSI take on the saga from a historical perspective:

Of Jets and Carriers... Again By Nick Childs for RUSI.org

http://www.rusi.org/analysis/commentary ... 68FA1E4B7/

"As the UK government grapples with whether or not to carry out a U-turn over which variant of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), chiefly because of issues surrounding carrier conversion costs, there are broader issues beyond technical and financial ones, and some echoes from the past...."

Another long post at the URL.
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Unread post07 May 2012, 06:54

I'm holding me breath.... :D

Britain Turns to Annual Budget Planning by Andrew Chuter 06 May 2012

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2012 ... |FRONTPAGE

"...A statement on the planning round for the financial year 2012-13 starting last month has been delayed by a debate in government over whether it should revert to purchasing the F-35B short-takeoff-and-vertical-landing (STOVL) variant of the Joint Strike Fighter.

The British had originally opted for the STOVL aircraft, but the incoming Conservative-led coalition government in 2010 switched to the F-35C conventional carrier takeoff variant without properly estimating the cost of converting a new aircraft carrier, now under construction, so it could operate the F-35C variant.

Now the spiraling costs of converting one of the two 65,000-ton carriers (the other one could be sold or mothballed) to carry the catapults and arrestor gear to operate conventional fast jets has forced the government to consider changing its mind again.

Even though the move to switch to the F-35C was heavily backed by Prime Minister David Cameron, a move back to the STOVL variant is the most likely outcome when Hammond outlines planning round deliberations."
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Unread post08 May 2012, 13:24

F-35 'facts have changed' since SDSR 08 May 2012

http://www.defencemanagement.com/news_s ... p?id=19664

"Defence Secretary Philip Hammond has recommended the National Security Council revert to choosing the F-35B joint strike fighter for the UK's Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers, it has been reported....

...The F-35C was considered to be the cheaper option at the time of the SDSR, but the cost of fitting the electromagnetic aircraft launch system to just one carrier has been estimated as high as £1.8bn since...."
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Unread post09 May 2012, 09:11

About-turn on new variant of carriers’ fighter plane By James Kirkup, 09 May 2012

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... plane.html

"David Cameron has approved a major retreat over aircraft for the Royal Navy’s new carriers, abandoning plans to buy the conventional take-off version of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

Philip Hammond, the Defence Secretary, will tell MPs tomorrow that the Government will now purchase the jump-jet model of the plane instead, reversing one of the central decisions in the Coalition’s controversial defence review.

The Prime Minister’s National Security Council yesterday considered Mr Hammond’s plan, which will be announced to the House of Commons.

Mr Hammond will claim the decision will save hundreds of millions of pounds...

...Downing Street confirmed a statement on the carrier programme was imminent."
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Unread post09 May 2012, 09:50

Unbelievable cluster-f*ck from start to so far. More screwups due soon, stay tuned.

The thing is, the actual carrier build is going really well and what's a complex engineering task is being carried out fuss free.
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Unread post09 May 2012, 10:01

The F-35B is a Transformer - in UK anyway: http://defensetech.org/wp-content/uploa ... /F-35B.jpg
+
Twin CVFs Ski Jumpers from: https://connect.innovateuk.org/c/docume ... -31142.pdf
Attachments
F-35Btransformer.jpg
CVFsGoingForwardSkiJumpF-35B.jpg
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Unread post09 May 2012, 15:02

stobiewan wrote:Unbelievable cluster-f*ck from start to so far. More screwups due soon, stay tuned.

The thing is, the actual carrier build is going really well and what's a complex engineering task is being carried out fuss free.


It could get worse actually depending on what happens after November.
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neptune

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Unread post09 May 2012, 19:47

It'll be interesting to see how the brit's ski-jump affects the internal bulkheads of the Bee vs. the LHA/D STOVL launches. When will the Bee test flights migrate to the ski-jump at PAX? After the redesigned bulkheads are installed, how much penalty, weight gain/ payload loss, does the Bee incurr? :?:
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Unread post09 May 2012, 22:03

Until now there would have been only those potential F-35B operators such as Spain and Italy with ski jumps requiring that ski jump testing. I guess now that the Brits are back the ski jump will be in action soon enough.

Any potential weight changes are still within the KPP requirements otherwise the moaners would be all over it.
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Unread post10 May 2012, 01:43

neptune wrote:It'll be interesting to see how the brit's ski-jump affects the internal bulkheads of the Bee vs. the LHA/D STOVL launches. When will the Bee test flights migrate to the ski-jump at PAX? After the redesigned bulkheads are installed, how much penalty, weight gain/ payload loss, does the Bee incurr? :?:


Are you familiar with the 496 bulkhead? Are you familiar with the production fix? If so, how would the relatively minor difference in compression of the nose landing gear during a ski-jump STO impart more loads to the 496 bulkhead than those absorbed during a VL?

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... 5b-351768/
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Unread post10 May 2012, 10:33

Needless to say 'Sharkey' is not a happy chappy but what the heck I wish some one would spell out what 'East of Suez' is. There be Dragons? :D

F-35 U-Turn is a Huge Mistake
Carrier Costs: Reversion to STOVL Is Neither Simple nor Cheap

http://www.sharkeysworld.com/2012/05/f- ... stake.html

"Executive Summary
i. The short-term cost differential between remaining with the angled deck decision (SDSR 2010) and opting for ramp-fitted decks to support the STOVL variant of the aircraft is considerably less than originally anticipated (possibly less than £1.05 billion). This differential is likely to be eroded further when the true cost of ship-borne equipment and support for Ship Rolling Vertical Landings is established.

ii. A reversion to STOVL will not result in a marked difference in the date at which an initial carrier operating capability is achieved.

iii. The through life costs of the STOVL aircraft air group are significantly greater than those associated with the conventional CV variant (nearly £5 billion more).

iv. The operational capability of the STOVL ramp-fitted aircraft carrier is unlikely to be regarded as Carrier Strike and may equate to a zero capability in very high temperatures East of Suez.

v. The adoption of a ramp-fitted deck would remove the option for the future operation of other carrier borne conventional aircraft, whether manned or unmanned.

vi. In warmer climes, the STOVL aircraft will not be able to land on smaller decks/platforms in emergency because of the constraints of its power/weight ratio and consequent planned Ship Rolling Vertical Landing (as opposed to Vertical Landing) characteristics. THIS ONE ITEM NEGATES THE ONLY ADVANTAGE THAT THE STOVL AIRCRAFT MIGHT HAVE HAD OVER THE CV VARIANT."

More explanatory stuff at the URL!

The last point [vi.] seems ludicrous. If the F-35B is able to VL with KPP requirements how is that a problem if some stores are jettisoned 'East of Suez' in an emergency?

And point [iv.] ("...may equate to a zero capability in very high temperatures East of Suez.") is inane. How is it that the CVF with ramp can launch KPP requirement in 450+ feet and with extra deck length available could not launch KPP weight in hotter temperatures with 10 knots WOD? Sharkey makes a silly claim indeed. [I say 450 feet plus because the original USMC 550 was changed recently to 600 feet but no mention was made of original UK 450 feet with ski jump KPP change (not required at that time).]

I would be a lot happier if Sharkey spelt out stuff but he does not. So it is all FUD - Fear Uncertainty and Doubt mixed with a huge dollop of BLUSTER! :D
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Unread post10 May 2012, 11:19

KPP DEFINITION: https://acc.dau.mil/ILC_KPP

"Those attributes or characteristics of a system that are considered critical or essential to the development of an effective military capability. A KPP normally has a threshold, representing the required value, and an objective, representing the desired value....

...KPPs are those system attributes considered most critical or essential for an effective military capability...."
__________________

"The USMC has added STOVL performance as a service specific key performance parameter. The requirement is listed as follows: With two 1000# JDAMs and two internal AIM-120s, full expendables, execute a 550 foot [NOW 600 ft] (450 UK STOVL) STO from LHA, LHD, and aircraft carriers (sea level, tropical day, 10 kts operational WOD) and with a combat radius of 450 nm (STOVL profile).

Also must perform STOVL vertical landing with two 1000# JDAMs and two internal AIM-120s, full expendables, and fuel to fly the STOVL Recovery profile."

https://www.afresearch.org/skins/rims/q ... nginespage [original source now not available]
SoGoHere:
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_download-id-14791.html (for small PDF)
OR
http://www.f-16.net/index.php?name=PNph ... ard#221433 [for some more KPP HooHaa] :roll: :D :shock: :roll:

Scorecard: A Case study of the Joint Strike Fighter Program
by Geoffrey P. Bowman, LCDR, USN — 2008 April — [PDF 325Kb 'bowman0558.pdf']
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Unread post10 May 2012, 12:06

Obviously, being "East of Suez" negates all that Spaz.. might be some sort of Bermuda Triangle phenomena where aircraft suddenly lose the ability to operate as designed LOL
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