AOL Defence - F-35 Buy/Operating Costs

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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spazsinbad

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Unread post31 Mar 2012, 14:07

F-35 Total Costs Soar to $1.5 Trillion; Lockheed Defends Program By Colin Clark | March 30, 2012

http://defense.aol.com/2012/03/30/f-35- ... s-program/

"...Frank Kendall, the presumptive undersecretrary of defense for acquisition, technology and logistics, told the Senate Armed Services Committee yesterday that he had come up with affordability targets to drive Lockheed Martin to save costs. We obtained a copy of the F-35 SAR talking points and they include those targets for both production and for sustainment. These numbers are for unit recurring flyaway cost. (This is the cost to buy a plane, not to operate it. It also usually doesn't include all development costs.)

We lay them out for each of the three models.

Production
F-35A = $83.4 million
F-35B = $108.1 million
F-35C = $93.3 million

Cost Per Flying Hour
F-35A = $35,200
F-35B = $38,400
F-35C = $36,300
..."
RAN FAA A4G: http://tinyurl.com/ctfwb3t http://tinyurl.com/ccmlenr http://www.youtube.com/user/bengello/videos
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m

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Unread post31 Mar 2012, 14:35

Some difference in price of the F35A.
Dutch defence, after the latest US report: $78.7 million (2012 dollars)

Datum 30 maart 2012
Betreft Amerikaanse informatie over het F-35 programma

Quote: Naar aanleiding van de herijking van het programma zal met ingang van SAR11 worden gerekend in prijspeil 2012. De kale stuksprijs in prijspeil 2012 bedraagt $ 78,7 miljoen.
Dit is de gemiddelde aanschafprijs van de F-35A over de hele looptijd van het productieprogramma, waarbij alle verwachte bestellingen van alle landen zijn

http://www.rijksoverheid.nl/ministeries ... ramma.html


* Original language, translation by web translator
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megasun

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Unread post31 Mar 2012, 22:04

What is compariable number of Cost Per Flying Hour of other aircrafts?
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m

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Unread post31 Mar 2012, 23:10

One cannot compare cost per flying hour by country
Cost per flying hour of an F35 will differ as well per country.


Some figures of flying cost per hour

A. Netherland and Belgium:
F16 MLU both €20,000 per flying hour in 2010

o 2010: €20,000 = $25,477.7 (average rate 2010: € 0.785 = $1)
o In 2012 dollars: $26,712 per flying hour (rate: €0.75)
(180 flying hours: $4.8 million per F16MLU per year)

B. UK
Aircraft Financial Year 2010-11 Cost Per Hour

UK: 2010-2011
Lord Astor of Hever
Conservative Peer
Whip, House of Lords (since 14 May 2010)
Parliamentary Under Secretary of State, Defence

Tornado GR4: £35,000
Typhoon: £70,000
Harrier GR7/GR9: £37,000
Tornado F3: £43,000

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id ... -25a.365.0
Last edited by m on 01 Apr 2012, 00:21, edited 1 time in total.
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m

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Unread post31 Mar 2012, 23:30

Germany: cost per flying hour

A. Tornado:
2007: €41,804
2008: €40,426

B. Typhoon:
2009: €73,992


Die Kosten (Betriebskosten und kalkulatorische Kosten) der Flugstunden für Luftfahrzeuge der Bundeswehr werden jährlich im Ministerialblatt des Bundesministeriums der Verteidigung veröffentlicht.
Bisher ließen programmbedingte Kostenschwankungen in der Einführungsphase EUROFIGHTER keine statistisch repräsentative Ermittlung der flugstundenbezogenen Kosten zu. Daher wurden rechnerisch die Kosten pro Flugstunde wie beim Waffensystem TORNADO zu Grunde gelegt, d.h. die Flugstundenkosten für 2007 und 2008 entsprechen den TORNADO-Werten (2007: 41.804 EURO, 2008: 40.426 EURO).
Mit Erreichen eines statistisch stabileren Flugbetriebs wurden die Kosten für das Waffensystem EUROFIGHTER erstmals für das Jahr 2009 mit 73.992 EURO ermittelt.
74 000 Euro pro Flugstunde - das ist eine Million Schilling. Platter, Darabos - sie haben uns alle belogen.
http://www.peterpilz.at/kommentar/2174/ ... gebuch.htm
Last edited by m on 01 Apr 2012, 00:01, edited 1 time in total.
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m

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Unread post31 Mar 2012, 23:56

A. US method: Flying cost per hour
F35A: $35,200


B. German method: Flying cost per hour
Tornado:
2007: €41,804 = $55,833.42
2008: €40,426 = $53,992.97

Typhoon:
2009: €73,992 = $98,823.72


C. UK method: Flying cost per hour
o Tornado GR4: £35,000 = $56,057.08
o Tornado F3: £43,000 = $68,870.13
o Typhoon: £70,000 = $112,114.16
o Harrier GR7/GR9: £37,000 = $59,260.34


D. Dutch and Belgium method: Flying cost per hour
o F16 MLU: €20,000 = $26,712 (2012 dollars)
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megasun

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Unread post01 Apr 2012, 10:05

Long live F-16!
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emc2

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Unread post11 Apr 2012, 13:05

m wrote:One cannot compare cost per flying hour by country
Cost per flying hour of an F35 will differ as well per country.


Some figures of flying cost per hour

A. Netherland and Belgium:
F16 MLU both €20,000 per flying hour in 2010

o 2010: €20,000 = $25,477.7 (average rate 2010: € 0.785 = $1)
o In 2012 dollars: $26,712 per flying hour (rate: €0.75)
(180 flying hours: $4.8 million per F16MLU per year)

B. UK
Aircraft Financial Year 2010-11 Cost Per Hour

UK: 2010-2011
Lord Astor of Hever
Conservative Peer
Whip, House of Lords (since 14 May 2010)
Parliamentary Under Secretary of State, Defence

Tornado GR4: £35,000
Typhoon: £70,000
Harrier GR7/GR9: £37,000
Tornado F3: £43,000

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id ... -25a.365.0


The UK figures include cost of purchase and financing the purchase and the Typhoon figure is high due to low number/introductory costs.

You really cannot make comparisons between different countries as its obviously calculated in a different manner. How much does carrier operation add to operating cost for instance.
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Unread post11 Apr 2012, 14:07

Although UK figures, to some extend, are comparable

German method: Flying cost per hour
(Ministerialblatt des Bundesministeriums der Verteidigung)

Tornado:
2007: €41,804 = $55,833.42
2008: €40,426 = $53,992.97

Typhoon:
2009: €73,992 = $98,823.72


UK:
o Tornado GR4: £35,000 = $56,057.08
o Tornado F3: £43,000 = $68,870.13
o Typhoon: £70,000 = $112,114.16
o Harrier GR7/GR9: £37,000 = $59,260.34
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Unread post11 Apr 2012, 14:36

20112012 Selected Acquisition Report (SAR)

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/ar ... 9-2012.pdf


Page 84:

Operating and Support Cost

F35

Assumptions And Ground Rules


The Department's Cost Analysis and Program Evaluation (CAPE) office updated its Operating and Support (O&S) cost estimate for the Milestone B DAB review held in February 2012.
The F-35 family of aircraft variants will replace or augment five current aircraft: F-16C/D, F-15C/D, A-10, F/A-18C/D, and AV-8B.
The F-35 O&S estimate is based on legacy fleet history when F-35 specific data is not available.


F-35 O&S costs shown in comparison with actual costs of an antecedent system reflect estimated cost-per-flyinghour for the F-35 Conventional Takeoff and Landing (CTOL) variant only.
The CTOL variant will make up the majority of the F-35 aircraft DoD buy, 1,763 of the 2,443 total.
The O&S differences between F-35 CTOL and F- 16C/D are representative of comparisons across legacy fleets.
The F-16 costs have been developed in a joint effort with the Air Force Cost Analysis Agency and have been normalized to reflect the cost of fuel and annual number of flight hours in the F-35 estimate.

The F-35 cost-per-flying-hour assumes full funding of the program’s requirements; the F-16 cost-per-flying-hour reflects actual FY11 expenditures.
Given the significant increase in capability, it is not unreasonable that the F-35 costs more to operate and sustain than certain legacy aircraft.
Total O&S Cost ($ in Millions) below reflects total O&S costs for all three U.S. variants based on an estimated 30 year service life and predicted attrition and usage rates, and are not a simple extrapolation of CTOL costs shown in the upper table.
The F-35 usage rates in terms of aircraft flight hours per year differ across variants as follows: CTOL @ 250, STOVL @ 302 and CV @ 316. The Total O&S Costs are adjusted for cost growth above inflation.
A comparable number for antecedent systems is not available.



Total Unitized Cost (Base Year 2012 $)

Costs BY2012 $K

F-35 Aircraft
Cost per Flying Hour ($)

Operating costs: $31.923


F-16C/D
Cost per Flying Hour ($)

Operating costs: $22.470

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