Israeli Meltdown

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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1st503rdsgt

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Unread post29 Dec 2011, 00:28

Looks like Israel might jump ship. Unfortunately for Geogen, they're only looking at secondhand fighters as their "interim solution." Like I said in another post, if someone can't afford the F-35, then it's unlikely they have extra cash lying around for brand-new F-15s either.

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Israel_ ... s_999.html
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post29 Dec 2011, 00:53

Not likely for two reasons:
1. The US is ultimately paying for the F-35Is and cancelling them will not save Israel anything.
2. Its F-35Is are likely to see action long before any of their ships, so having the best fighters is a higher priority.
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stereospace

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Unread post29 Dec 2011, 00:53

Inconclusive article. A lot of maybe's and might's and could be's.
In 2010, the air force, which will bear the brunt of any conflict with Iran, ordered 20 Lockheed Martin F-35 stealth fighters worth $2.75 billion to maintain its long-held supremacy in the air. But delays in the F-35 program mean Israel may not get the jet -- the first of 75 it plans to buy -- until after 2017.

It has mulled buying upgraded Boeing F-15 Eagles and Lockheed F-16 Falcons as a stopgap. But even that's likely to be too expensive in the current economic climate. So now the air force is looking at a cheaper alternative.


It sounds to me like they're looking for capability to hold them till F-35's arrive.
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Unread post29 Dec 2011, 01:04

If Japan can get them by 2016, then so can Israel.
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popcorn

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Unread post29 Dec 2011, 03:09

stereospace wrote:Inconclusive article. A lot of maybe's and might's and could be's.
In 2010, the air force, which will bear the brunt of any conflict with Iran, ordered 20 Lockheed Martin F-35 stealth fighters worth $2.75 billion to maintain its long-held supremacy in the air. But delays in the F-35 program mean Israel may not get the jet -- the first of 75 it plans to buy -- until after 2017.

It has mulled buying upgraded Boeing F-15 Eagles and Lockheed F-16 Falcons as a stopgap. But even that's likely to be too expensive in the current economic climate. So now the air force is looking at a cheaper alternative.


It sounds to me like they're looking for capability to hold them till F-35's arrive.


Agreed. I don't see them backtracking on the F-35s. Outnumbered by hostile neighbors who are stocking up with increasingly advanced kit, Israel needs to maintain a technological edge.. Does Israel really face that serious a naval threat to justify the levels of spending for advanced warships?
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Unread post29 Dec 2011, 03:36

The way I read the article is that the Israelis are trying to figure out the most cost effective way to address a short term fighter shortfall to mitigate the current and any future delays in F-35 deliveries. The US provides Israel about 3B a year for defense, a little less than 20% of the Israeli defense budget.
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lb

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Unread post29 Dec 2011, 05:08

Actually Israel spends $16 billion (7% GDP) and receives around $2.55 billion in military aid. Almost all this aid is spent on US systems so while on one hand it's aid on another it's just a subsidy to defense contractors. Consider Israel chose not to expand production in Israel and instead the US gets those jobs building the Namer in the US. In any case Israel has spent as high as %24 GDP on defense, the norm being closer to 9% and the US aid can buy anything so not buying one thing means something else can be purchased. The military aid is closer to 16% of their budget and they can survive without it. Indeed it hurts them long term economically.

The article cited points out the Israeli's don't really know what they're doing yet in terms of various procurement programs. They're not going to cancel the F-35 but they might purchase fewer or stretch that out and in any case they can't afford replacing all their F-15's and F-16's with F-35's anytime soon so they need some other plans as well.

Moreover, their domestic pressure to curb defense spending is a short term trend that eventually will meet the long term trends of the change in government in Egypt and possibly Syria.
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Unread post29 Dec 2011, 06:41

The article trying to show that Israel compromising due to lack of money.
Well not quite true, although the budjet is limited but the IDF in the 5 years (2012-2017) procurement plan will buy another sqdrn of 20 F-35i's.The deal to be sign in early 2012.

The navy want 2 ships (around 2000 ton each), so they examed the Lockheed Martin LCS and the Germen MEKO A-100, but it didn't work out.

In the mean time Israel ordered another 3 Dolphin AIP calss Submarines from Germany and the Navy plan to get the 2 ships became more limited.

So, they will retire 4 old small corvettes (500 ton each) and instead will get bran new big corvettes (around 1000 ton each) highly equipped.

The idea to buy used US F-15's or F-16's is not new and not that good since modifications and enhancements in the jets will have to be made according to the IAF standards - that's time and money. But it's an option..

In the bottom line, the IDF will have in 7 years 40 F-35i's, 6 Submarines and a large fleet of high class corvettes, some say all of these can carry "special" weapon..
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stereospace

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Unread post29 Dec 2011, 12:41

It's not a bad plan to buy used 15's and 16's as a stopgap. And if I were they Israeli's, I'd be fitting out fighters and ships to carry nukes as well.
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Unread post29 Dec 2011, 13:53

So where do they find 2nd hand F-15s and F-16s that are in reasonable shape?
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neptune

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Unread post29 Dec 2011, 17:38

popcorn..... Does Israel really face that serious a naval threat to justify the levels of spending for advanced warships?[/quote]

To provide defense of the new off-shore Natural Gas production fields. These fields can give Israel more independence in feed/ fuels for their civilian economy and military fuels. These fields are easy targets and will require these new defenses.

[quote="popcorn wrote:
So where do they find 2nd hand F-15s and F-16s that are in reasonable shape?


Our soon to be retired teens will free up a/c in AMARG for Israel to "gut" and replace with updated flight displays and mission systems, etc.
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Unread post30 Dec 2011, 01:33

I agree, with irans newest naval excercises they need to be able to protect their waters efficiently. But I still suggest stealth fighters over short use navy.
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discofishing

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Unread post30 Dec 2011, 02:36

It's hard to trust a news outlet called "spacewar.com". Who are their "staff writers"?
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maus92

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Unread post30 Dec 2011, 02:56

discofishing wrote:It's hard to trust a news outlet called "spacewar.com". Who are their "staff writers"?


Here's another article:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/ ... v0YbyNSQyQ
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Unread post25 Jan 2012, 13:31

Israel makes fresh push to perform F-35 maintenance By: Arie Egozi | Tel Aviv 24 Jan 2012

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ce-367277/

"Israel's air force has again expressed its opposition to the idea of performing heavy maintenance work on its future fleet of Lockheed Martin F-35 combat aircraft outside Israel.

As part of the US stealth fighter programme, Lockheed and the US Air Force want to establish regional maintenance centres for the F-35, with one such facility planned for Italy.

During recent talks between the Israeli air force and the USAF, Israel's opposition to using an overseas facility was underlined. A source close to the issue said the Americans understand the Israeli service's "special needs", and that alternative ways are now being evaluated to perform heavy maintenance on the F-35 at its own bases.

Deliveries from Israel's first order for 20 conventional take-off and landing F-35As are expected to start in early 2017, the source said, adding there is also an understanding that the air force will get permission to interface some Israeli-developed systems or equipment following their arrival.

This possibility applies mainly to the aircraft's electronic warfare suite, as previous Israeli requests to equip the type with domestically manufactured equipment were rejected."
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