U.S. denies Taiwan's request under Chinese pressure

If you feel you absolutely must talk about cars, morality, or anything else not related to the F-16, do it here.
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madrat

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Unread post18 Aug 2011, 12:34

southernphantom wrote:See where I'm going?
F-22A = B-1A?
I pray to God that it is so.


As long as they stretch it and create an FB-22 in the context of an F-111. Call it a new number so its not FB-22.
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marco9

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Unread post18 Aug 2011, 12:56

madrat wrote:The problem with Minuteman III is that the younger engineers don't know it like the older guys did. It's too long in the tooth. Why was the MX/Peacekeeper retired/bartered away so darn easily? They allowed them to be a part of the arms reduction negotiations when they should have been off the table. They should have resisted the demand, kept them, and offered to retire more Minutemans instead.


There is something called SALT and START agreements out there.

Who the hell is the USA getting ready to fight?
A mega super Soviet Union Nazi Ultra-mega-galactic ... what? Zambia?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_spending
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rkap

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Unread post19 Aug 2011, 15:19

marco9 wrote:
discofishing wrote:
The US needs another Ronald Reagan and fast


You got that right!


No, the United States need money.
[/quote]

Last Quote only - the truest statement so far on this forum.
I am certain Taiwan could buy upgrades from many other nations or complete Aircraft that would match the latest F16 for similar money. The US does not have a monopoly on aircraft equal to the F16. I imagine Israel or Europe would be happy to supply them or sell them the technology.
Maybe even the Russians.
No love lost between Russia and China in many areas now. Especially military technology with China copying and selling it. One of the reasons they want to build a new fighter. An advanced fighter that China can't copy for at least 10-20 years. The T-50 - they hope it will help them retain there markets and get new ones. Russia is now more about making a $ and supplying what there customers want than anything else. Maybe that is what the US has to do - make products there customers want at the right price. As easy as that.

The real issue is the US has to decide how it is going to make this money and put in place the reforms needed. You don't want any more "Detroits".
Stop blaming China and others and accept the blame. Most of it is home grown.

If you listen carefully to what China says they simply want the US to sort its economy and make the hard decisions necessary. They want to know there $1+ trillion is safe and the US economy will not drag the whole world into recession.
Would the US public accept increased prices during a recession if excessive tarrifs were put on Chinese products anyway.

Reagan could not solve this one with his policies - maybe his big military spending gave the US a short term boom but was that the beginning of the problem now faced. The US spending beyond its means. Was it funded from revenue or loans? The USSR went to the wall trying to match the US in that period - it must have had some effect on the US economy long term also.
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marco9

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Unread post19 Aug 2011, 15:40

Cutting galactic defense budgets is the simplest, most suitable solution that a modern XXI century democracy has to do to face the REAL XXI century strategic war: i.e. economy and debt war.

China is not sending armoured columns neither in the US nor in Taiwan. They are flooding the global market with their cheap, affordable and somewhat avarage quality goods.

...not willing to add that the war is moving from classic interstate warfare to global corporate war.

Today a Country is put under attack by any Moody's or Standard&Poors rating Company of the day.
The downgrade of the US economy to AA+ hit the US system more than any declared or percieved foreign State can do for a reasonable time or did in the past as back as the British invasion in the beginning of the XIX century.
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rkap

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Unread post19 Aug 2011, 16:08

Not only that..The US nuclear deterrence is falling apart..Minuteman III' s are 40+ years old and don't work properly. Russia and China are developing new nuclear weapons, ICBM's like crazy while the US didn't build a single nuclear warhead since more than 20 years.


Keep it in perspective. China probably has about 50 Long Range ICBM's. They only tested there first successfull one in 1980.

What is wrong with parity. It will help the US save money at a time it needs to.
If the US arsenal is getting old and unreliable the Russian one would have to be considered archaic both land based and submarine launched. There is no doubt there Topolov is a good missile but they were only building 1 or 2 each year from 1990 up until recently.
They now are about to try and renew all there old archaic stuff by 2020.
A new model by 2013 but knowing how the Russians work on the basis of gradual development most of the time it will simply be an improved version of the Tupolev.
There new Bulava is only now just ready for production after years of problems.

Reported: The Russian Defense Ministry will buy 36 strategic ballistic missiles, two strategic missile submarines and 20 strategic cruise missiles this year [2011] Minister Anatoly Serdyukov said on Friday.
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duplex

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Unread post19 Aug 2011, 16:54

madrat wrote:The problem with Minuteman III is that the younger engineers don't know it like the older guys did. It's too long in the tooth. Why was the MX/Peacekeeper retired/bartered away so darn easily? They allowed them to be a part of the arms reduction negotiations when they should have been off the table. They should have resisted the demand, kept them, and offered to retire more Minutemans instead.


Absolutely true.. The MX/Peacekeeper ,the most advanced ICBM in the world was feared by Russians and the US administration dismantled them in an act of unprecedented naivety without getting anything tangible in return.. Unbelievable ...In 10 years from now the Minuteman's are 50 years old so what comes after ?
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geogen

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Unread post20 Aug 2011, 02:02

Duplex-

Give Obama admin credit where credit is due for truly being a strategic thinker in this one aspect. This was only a matter of time, no matter who was president (enter anyone's hardline, absolutist Putin-style prez for America - being tough on China - choice here...). Sure, the stay-the-course old-school policies vis-a-vis Taiwan could have possibly been stretched out perhaps for another 2-3 yrs and as such possibly given the chance for new F-16 airframe sales (or Leases). But I think arguably, the decision to go ahead with SLEP upgrade instead is pragmatic and a signal to both PRC and ROC, that US aspires for strategic stability and geopolitical slash security-evolution in the region - not continued stand-offs and military tension. There is simply too much to gain now... it's the decisive moment.

So this is in fact LEADERSHIP, in that US is taking the first-step lead role in influencing the future paradigm for cross-straits de-escalation and regional policy normalization.

Thus, the US position will therefore be rewarded for such influential leadership, not maligned.

Sure, RoC could have opted for a more robust and independent (Sweden style) aero space industry by now, but the fact is that regardless of the situation, the opportunity now exists for all sides for establishing strategic progress for mutually-benefiting affairs. Unprecedented comments made recently by the likes of Rear Admiral Yang Yi wanting normalization and denying PRC interests for regional dominance would affirm that.

Credit this as a strategic win for US being influential at the lead. Respects-
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geogen

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Unread post20 Aug 2011, 02:21

Off-topic.... but as for the post asking: what comes after 50 yr old in the tooth minuteman? Fair question in terms of maintaining balance of power until balance of power is no longer the rule. So perhaps it could be something offered by Orbital Sciences? A future new-build Minotaur family rocket, based on peacekeeper?
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geogen

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Unread post20 Aug 2011, 03:08

F - Never implement a policy simply because you are 'mad'. Rule #1. (there will likely be more negative consequences and extra costs w/ that policy in the end). ;)

But re: European jets, etc, the same 'Leadership' opportunity applies to Europe today as well imho. There is a new paradigm and reality, with mutual benefits never possible before. It's a 'different animal' in history we are entering into one could say, but hopefully one with more positive mutual results on the back end of this difficult cycle we're in.
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faust

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Unread post21 Aug 2011, 00:43

well:

China and Russia had been in negotiations on the sale of the Su-33 Flanker-D fighters to be used on future Chinese aircraft carriers since 2006, but the talks collapsed over China's request for an initial delivery of two aircraft for a "trial."

Russian Defense Ministry sources confirmed that the refusal was due to findings that China had produced its own copycat version of the Su-27SK fighter jet in violation of intellectual property agreements.

In 1995, China secured a $2.5-billion production license from Russia to build 200 Su-27SKs, dubbed J-11A, at the Shenyang Aircraft Corp.

The deal required the aircraft to be outfitted with Russian avionics, radars and engines. Russia cancelled the arrangement in 2006 after it discovered that China was developing an indigenous version, J-11B, with Chinese avionics and systems. The decision came after China had already produced at least 95 aircraft.

Last year, Russia refused again to sell the Su-33 to China even after Beijing had offered to buy 14 of them, saying that at least 24 jets should be sold to recoup production costs.


http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20100604/159306694.html

maybe the russians have more willingness to sell fighters to taiwan because: first: is MONEY!, second: they don't want to sell more fighters to mainland China... offsetting some the loss in one market with the gains on other....
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discofishing

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Unread post21 Aug 2011, 08:48

Give Obama admin credit where credit is due for truly being a strategic thinker in this one aspect. This was only a matter of time, no matter who was president (enter anyone's hardline, absolutist Putin-style prez for America - being tough on China - choice here...). Sure, the stay-the-course old-school policies vis-a-vis Taiwan could have possibly been stretched out perhaps for another 2-3 yrs and as such possibly given the chance for new F-16 airframe sales (or Leases). But I think arguably, the decision to go ahead with SLEP upgrade instead is pragmatic and a signal to both PRC and ROC, that US aspires for strategic stability and geopolitical slash security-evolution in the region - not continued stand-offs and military tension. There is simply too much to gain now... it's the decisive moment.


Obama and his administration deserve absolutely zero credit in this instance. Their "security abroad, but not at home" policies are hurting the country. With respect to the F-16s, they don't need a SLEP. They are already Block 20 MLU aircraft. What they need is some avionics upgrades in the form of AESA radars, HMDs, and perhapse -229 engines. If they want more aircraft, we can sell them used aircraft from AMARG which can be upgraded accordingly.
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Prinz_Eugn

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Unread post21 Aug 2011, 19:29

They have been discussing an AESA upgrade. The other stuff, I don't know. I think the political reality might lead to a really funky variant of super duper Block 20's...
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southernphantom

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Unread post21 Aug 2011, 19:50

Prinz_Eugn wrote:They have been discussing an AESA upgrade. The other stuff, I don't know. I think the political reality might lead to a really funky variant of super duper Block 20's...


That could be cool, but what about airframe life considerations? The USAF is already trying to dump our Block 25s, look how the Texas ANG lost one of their fighter wings and got stuck with flying snowmobiles.
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discofishing

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Unread post21 Aug 2011, 19:54

They have been discussing an AESA upgrade. The other stuff, I don't know. I think the political reality might lead to a really funky variant of super duper Block 20's...


Funky and very capable. I really think they should go for the engine upgrade. From what I've read and been told, the -229 will drop right in to any MLU Viper.
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geogen

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Unread post22 Aug 2011, 00:57

Such a normal SLEP package as this could include new more efficient -229 engine and the sensor suite modernization, we'll have to wait & see.

And I'll concur with Prinz here that in the end it will likely to look in the political sense, 'funky'.

Respects to PRC and Taiwan in peacefully working out their differences in a new age now and developing a mutually resolved relationship for the future without intimidation or threats. imho.
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