66 F-16C/Ds to Taiwan?

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J.J.

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Unread post16 Jul 2007, 20:32

This discussion thread is related to our F-16 news <a href="http://www.f-16.net/news_article2402.html">US has four months to approve F-16 sale to Taiwan</a>.

earthtimes.org wrote:Taiwan official in US to seek purchase of 66 F-16 jets

DPA - Fri, 13 Jul 2007 02:42:21 GMT

Taipei - A ranking Taiwan military official is visiting the United States to seek the purchase of 66 F16C/D fighter jets, which the US agreed to sell to Taiwan in 2006 but is now dragging its feet, a newspaper said on Friday. The China Times quoted an unnamed military source as confirming that Huo Shou-yeh, chief of the general staff, has led a delegation to the US this week and is now in Washington DC to meet with US military officials.

Huo may run into US Secretary of Defence Robert Gates "by accident" and he would tell Gates that Taiwan has an urgent need to buy the F16C/Ds, the source said.

Taiwan does not have diplomatic ties with the US, therefore ranking US officials are not allowed to have formal meetings with Taiwan officials.

The purpose of Huo's secret visit is to seek the purchase of 66 F16C/D which the US agreed to sell to Taiwan in 2006, but is now delaying finalizing the deal, the daily said.

Taiwan needs to buy the F16C/Ds to boost its air defence against China which sees Taiwan as its breakaway province and has vowed to recover Taiwan by force if necessary.

The paper said that officials are confused as to why the US is delaying the F16C/D sale after it has told Taipei in private that it would sell the jets.

The US asked Taiwan to pass two budgets for the F16C/Ds before it could approve the selling the F16C/D, the China Times said.

Taiwan has passed both budgets, but still the US has not approved the F16C/D sale.

The paper warned that if the F16C/D sale is nixed, it may indicate the end of the "arms sales honeymoon" between the US and Taiwan.

The US, a long-time anti-Communist ally of Taiwan, switched recognition from Taiwan to China in 1979 but enacted the Taiwan Relations Act, pledging to continue to sell defensive arms to Taiwan.

If the US approves the sale of 66 F16C/Ds, it will be its largest arms sale to Taiwan since former president George H W Bush approved the sale of 150 F16A/Bs to Taiwan in 1992.

The F16C/D is an improved version of the F16A/B.

The Taiwan Air Force's fleet currently is made up of about 150 F16A/B, 60 Mirage 2000-5s and 130 self-developed IDFs (Indigenous Defence Fighter) as several of the F-16 and Mirage jets, which were imported from France in the 1990s, have crashed during while on training missions.

Source: http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/82314.html
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Unread post16 Jul 2007, 23:23

The following is a selection of articles discussing the Taiwanese authorization to buy up to 66 new F-16C's:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... =sec-world
http://www.forbes.com/markets/feeds/afx ... 36412.html

To give a quick summary: Taiwan's legislature has been paralyzed for the past several years by bitter fueds between the Nationalist Party (KMT) - which controls the legislature, and the Democratic Progressive Party - which controls the Presidency.

The Taiwanese legislature has therefore failed to approve a far-reaching defense modernization package that was originally proposed by Taiwan's President, and approved for export by the US, back in 2001. This package did NOT include the talked about 66 F-16s.

So now, after six years of delay, the Taiwanese armed forces are finally clamoring for an end to the partisan bickering. They have watched their technology edge progressively erode while nothing was done to update their own arsenal.

The KMT - not wanting to appear soft on defense but also not wanting to capitulate to a DPP President - has approved SOME of the arms package originally proposed in 2001, and has added funding for up to 66 new F-16s . . . but only if a deal can be closed with the US administration within the next four months. That way, if the DPP runs into the band of red tape that typically surrounds Washington, the KMT can blame the US and the DPP for the lack of progress on an arms package (rather than taking the blame for it themselves).

I hate politics.
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Tim

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Unread post16 Jul 2007, 23:48

I hate politics

preciselly why I've not commented on this thread.
(uh, I guess I just did, Bad Tim, BAD Tim) :oops:
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elp

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Unread post17 Jul 2007, 20:11

Yup. The previous deals have to be settled first before additional F-16s can happen.
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Unread post28 Jun 2011, 03:51

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i= ... =AIR&s=TOP

U.S. Blocks Taiwan's F-16 Request Again

Published: 27 Jun 2011 14:09

A U.S. defense industry source said that Taiwan's de facto embassy in Washington, the Taipei Economic and Cultural Representative Office (TECRO), was preparing to submit its fourth LoR for price-and-availability data for 66 F-16C/D Block 50/52 fighters to the American Institute in Taiwan (AIT).
But it was told by AIT that the LoR would not be accepted.
AIT declined to comment.

The issue has become a Catch-22 for Taiwan, in which TECRO cannot submit an LoR to AIT because it is under State Department orders to deny it, and then TECRO is told by the State Department that the LoR cannot be processed because it was not received, he said.
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Unread post28 Jun 2011, 11:34

Wait to send the request when the communists are routed out of said state department.
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Unread post29 Jun 2011, 09:57

Wait to send the request when the communists are routed out of said state department.


LOL!
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Unread post23 Jul 2011, 03:23

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i= ... =ASI&s=AIR


TAIPEI - The Obama administration will make a final decision on the sale of 66 F-16C/D fighter jets to Taiwan by Oct. 1, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton told Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, on July 21.
A U.S. Air Force F-16C fighter makes a flight from Tyndall Air Force Base, Fla., to Atlantic City, N.J., in this 2001 photo. Taiwan has requested permission from the U.S. government to purchase the F-16C and the F-16D, a two-seat fighter. (U.S. Air Force)

Since 2006, the U.S. has repeatedly rejected Taiwan's letter of request (LOR) for new F-16C/D fighters. China has called the proposed sale, estimated to be worth more than $8 billion, a "red line."

Cornyn has been blocking Senate confirmation of William Burns, nominated to become deputy secretary of state, in an effort to pressure Clinton to approve the deal.

Clinton appears less than likely to upset recent progress in Sino-U.S. relations by releasing new fighters to Taiwan, although she might instead release a mid-life upgrade (MLU) package for the self-governing island's 146 aging F-16A/B fighters.

Last year, the U.S. accepted Taiwan's LOR for the $4.5 billion upgrade package, but then froze the release due to Chinese pressure.

A State Department release of the F-16A/B MLU "would be a reiteration of a decision that is already over one year old," said Rupert Hammond-Chambers, president of the U.S.-Taiwan Business Council. "It is not a new commitment."

Since 2007, the U.S. has released more than $16 billion in new arms to Taiwan. After each release, China has increased rhetorical threats and punitive actions. In January 2010, after Washington released a $6.4 billion arms deal to Taiwan, Beijing threatened economic punishment and canceled military exchanges.

Restarting the military dialogue with China has been difficult. Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff, just concluded a trip to China to expand military relations. Though Mullen expressed concerns about China's military modernization after his trip, the U.S. appears committed to advancing strategic talks.

Clinton's announced deadline happens to fall on China's National Day, roughly equivalent to America's Fourth of July.

But Hammond-Chambers said the timing makes the release of new F-16s difficult for another reason: It is sandwiched between U.S. Vice President Joseph Biden's trip to China next month and Chinese President Hu Jintao's trip to Hawaii in November. Xi Jinping, Hu's anointed successor, will visit the U.S. this winter.

"It doesn't seem plausible that the Obama administration would stand-up for Taiwan policy in the face of two such senior visits from China," Hammond-Chambers said.

While the announcement to make a decision is welcome, "We suspect that the outcome simply reiterates decisions already made, and therefore fails to address Taiwan's central need - new combat aircraft to meet the growing threat from China," Hammond-Chambers said.

Andrew Yang, Taiwan's deputy minister of defense, said the release of new F-16s would not be the end of the world. China has been calling every arms sale a red line for 30 years, he said.

"China will be extremely unpleasant and upset," Yang said. "I don't believe they will take drastic action."

But a failure to release F-16s will damage Taiwan's ability to defend itself, he said. "If we don't have the required jets and replacement of vintage fighter aircraft, you lose your leverage."

Yang said Taiwan has the right to defend itself from outside aggression.

He confirmed that Taiwan's military is researching an electromagnetic pulse (EMP) weapon.

Taiwan also is developing new missiles, but Yang would not confirm whether the self-governing island is preparing to field the Hsiung Feng 2E land-attack cruise missile.

Yang said losing Taiwan to China would be catastrophic for U.S. military power in the Asia-Pacific region. If China built military bases on the island, they would threaten U.S. military dominance of the East China Sea and South China Sea.

The deputy defense minister said Washington also would lose a vital intelligence collector.

"We are collecting good stuff," and sharing it with the U.S., he said.

Taiwan's fighters are aging; meanwhile, China revealed in December its J-20 stealth fighter, and it is preparing sea trials of its first aircraft carrier by the end of the year.

Taiwan has 126 Indigenous Defense Fighters (IDFs), 56 Mirage 2000s, 146 F-16A/Bs and about 60 F-5E/F Tigers. The F-5s and Mirages have serious maintenance problems and will be retired within a decade.

Taiwan's state-run Aerospace Industrial Development Corp. is upgrading 71 IDFs, with delivery scheduled by 2014, and it could upgrade the remaining 55 IDFs if the F-16C/Ds are not approved. Taiwan also has an option to build a new C/D variant of the IDF, but this will not fill the fighter gap with China.



"Clinton appears less than likely to upset recent progress in Sino-U.S. relations by releasing new fighters to Taiwan, although she might instead release a mid-life upgrade (MLU) package for the self-governing island's 146 aging F-16A/B fighters."

From what I understand, every single one of Taiwan's F-16A/Bs were built to Block 20 standards, meaning they have all had the MLU applied at the factory. Why is the MLU even being mentioned? Does the current administration not know what kind of F-16s this country has sold to Taiwan? With respect to RoCAF's current fleet, there should be mention of additional upgrades in the form of AESA radars and the latest PW F100s available. The US has already agreed to sell Apache helicopters and Patriot PAC-3 missile systems in spite of protest from China. Why not 66 F-16C/D fighters. Who says we have to tell the world we're selling them the aircraft in the first place?
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Unread post23 Jul 2011, 03:55

Not a fan of selling more top-line hardware to Taiwan. Anything we give them is going to be in PRC hands within a few years. :pint:
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Unread post23 Jul 2011, 07:58

If anything, it could be contemplated to "Lease" F-16s say for a 10 yr term, perhaps on the condition that ROCgov agrees never to declare unilateral independence and that within the 10 yr period there is a peacefully negotiated final settlement? Now that would be some serious influence...

Anyway, that might be an acceptable compromise, but it would surely have to be lobbied and sold to ROC. Perhaps some of the electronic components could be originated and produced in China too? :shock:

Regardless, one might think that Taiwan should have an independent aerospace industry by now, producing either home grown short-range Mirage 2000-XX or next-gen derivatives of the FC-1x. Sub-components for those could be contracted out to foreign suppliers and the jets themselves could have possibly even been exported as alternative 'light fighters' for small air-forces. Respects-
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Unread post23 Jul 2011, 09:19

Discofishing,

Although the block 20 airframes of the RoCAF are build to mainly MLU specification, they lack some key elements in the MLU structure. Yes off course they feature the APG-66(V2) radar and APX-113 IFF system. But since their delivery back in 1993-1994 they weren't upgraded as such. So all the different MLU software and hardware releases (ranging MLU tape 1 through 6 currently) have gone past their hand. So no colored displays, no Link-16, no HMCS, no advanced stores management, no mode 5 IFF, etc. So an MLU of those airframes is certainly not that odd. They have a lot of extra capabilities to earn with the MLU upgrade. The software and hardware they already have doesn't have to be replaced, but all the extra stuff could be easily incorporated.

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Unread post23 Jul 2011, 09:21

Not a fan of selling more top-line hardware to Taiwan. Anything we give them is going to be in PRC hands within a few years. Guiness


Is there huge amount of difference between the F-16AMs they already have and F-16Cs? We're going to sell them Patriot missile systems and Apache helicopters, why not more of something they already operate?
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Unread post23 Jul 2011, 09:44

At this time there is a huge difference between their F-16A block 20's and the latest model F-16C/D block 50/52 advanced. If they would decide to MLU their block 20 airframes as mentioned before the difference would become a little smaller. But consider that a fully updated MLU bird is somewhat equal to a standard block 50/52 airframe and not to a block 50/52 advanced. In some ways you can say that a European MLU bird is more similar to a USAF block 50/52 than a USAF block 50/52 is to a block 50/52 advanced.

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JoeSambor

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Unread post23 Jul 2011, 10:47

Bjorn wrote:At this time there is a huge difference between their F-16A block 20's and the latest model F-16C/D block 50/52 advanced. If they would decide to MLU their block 20 airframes as mentioned before the difference would become a little smaller.


The intent of the MLU modification has already been accomplished on Block 20 aircraft. You could consider Block 20 aircraft a "production" MLU aircraft.

Bjorn wrote:But consider that a fully updated MLU bird is somewhat equal to a standard block 50/52 airframe and not to a block 50/52 advanced. In some ways you can say that a European MLU bird is more similar to a USAF block 50/52 than a USAF block 50/52 is to a block 50/52 advanced.


Agree 100% with that statement.

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Bjorn

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Unread post23 Jul 2011, 12:54

JoeSambor wrote:The intent of the MLU modification has already been accomplished on Block 20 aircraft. You could consider Block 20 aircraft a "production" MLU aircraft.


Yes, but without the later developments that came with MLU tapes M2 till M6.

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