F-16 versus JF-17 Joint Pakistan/Chinese fighter

Agreed, it will never be a fair fight but how would the F-16 match up against the ... ?
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

dmz241

Newbie

Newbie

  • Posts: 3
  • Joined: 23 Dec 2008, 07:05

Unread post24 Dec 2008, 11:26

well I just talked to someone who has supplied cnc machines to paf and as per him they still dont have the machines up and running due to some structural problems. So far the plane is completely being build in china. He did say that it has some French and Western avionics in it. He also told me that this is a mid tier plane cant compete too well in air fights is better suited for ground assaults...
Offline

#1falconfan

Newbie

Newbie

  • Posts: 12
  • Joined: 28 Mar 2009, 01:44

Unread post28 Mar 2009, 01:52

You guys also forget to mention that the aircrafts weapons in chinese service are not nearly as good as are's. You also forgot mention piolts skill. :D
Offline

kingcobra

Newbie

Newbie

  • Posts: 3
  • Joined: 13 Jul 2009, 11:50
  • Location: Pakistan

Unread post13 Jul 2009, 12:38

Guys have a look at JF-17 and F-16 turn rate Comparison.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5aUGum2EiM

:devil: :cheers:
Offline

mrfalcon

Newbie

Newbie

  • Posts: 3
  • Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 19:40

Unread post21 Nov 2009, 19:43

if some one have been forgotten about the jf 17 thunder then read it again here is the some information for some over dammped posters.

Official designation: Fighter China-1 (FC-1) Xiaolong
PAF designation: Joint Fighter-17 (JF-17) Thunder
Function: Air-superiority; Ground attack
Designer: Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute (611 Institute)
Manufacturer: Chengdu Aircraft Industry (Group) Corporation Ltd. (CAC)
Maiden flight: 25 August 2003
Operator: Pakistani Air Force
Estimated cost: US$15~20 million

The FC-1 (Fighter China-1) Xiaolong is the result of a joint Sino-Pakistani development programme that started in 1999, with each side contributing 50% of the total development cost. Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC) of China is the prime contractor for aircraft development and manufacture, while Pakistani Aeronautical Complex (PAC) is the main partner responsible for post-sale service and maintenance, as well as the production of some parts for the aircraft in Pakistan. The aircraft was designed by Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute (611 Institute). Russia supplied its Klimov RD-93 turbofan jet engine for the aircraft.

The initial order was from the Pakistani Air Force (PAF) for eight aircraft, which were delivered in 2007~08. A further order for 42 aircraft worth about US$800 million was signed in March 2009. The aircraft is currently being built by CAC at a rate of 15 aircraft per annum, and this will increase to 30 aircraft per annum later. The total number required by the PAF could be as many as 250, worth US$3~5 billion.

Several other countries also showed interest in the aircraft. Despite previous reports suggesting that the FC-1 would also be equipped by the PLAAF, no order has been reported so far.

Programme

The FC-1 traces its origin to the Super-7 fighter programme, a joint Chengdu-Grumman development project worth US$500 million to upgrade the Chinese J-7 (MiG-21) fighter. Proposed upgrades included removing the fighter's nose air intake and replacing it with a ‘solid’ nose with two lateral air intakes, as well as upgrading the fighter with Western-made avionics and engine. The development agreement was signed in 1986, but the programme was cancelled in 1990, in the wake of the cooling political relations between China and the West, as well as in response to a 40% increase in the cost of the project.

Chengdu continued the Super-7 project independently and re-branded the design as FC-1. In 1999, China and Pakistan concluded a joint development and production agreement to co-develop the FC-1 fighter. Under the agreement, the programme was to be jointly funded by the China Aviation Import and Export Corporation (CATIC) and Pakistan, each with 50% stake of the joint venture. The total cost of the development programme was estimated to be US$150 million. Russian Mikoyan Aero-Science Production Group (MASPG) reportedly provided some assistance in the development of the aircraft

The first prototype of the FC-1 rolled out on 31 May 2003, and the aircraft made its maiden flight successfully on 25 August. A total of three flying prototypes were developed, along with a static prototype. Flight trial of the aircraft completed in 2005 and the aircraft entered production in June 2006.


JF-17 of the Pakistani Air Force (Chinese Military Aviation)


In March 2007, CAC delivered two JF-17 fighters (#101, #102) to the PAF on 12 March 2007. They made their debut on 23 March during a fly-past as part of the Pakistan Day military parade in Islamabad. A further six aircraft were delivered to the PAF in 2008. Under the joint development agreement, the PAF will acquire up to 250 examples of the fighter in several batches, with the avionics systems gradually upgraded in later batches. Some production will also be carried out by PAC in Pakistan, including the manufacture of the aircraft’s wings and fin.

CAC and CATIC are also actively marketing the FC-1 to other developing countries as a low-cost replacement for the Northrop F-5 Tiger, Dassault Mirage III/5, Shenyang J-6, MiG-21/F-7 Fishbed, and Nanchang Q-5. Potential customers could include Bangladesh, Iran, Egypt and Nigeria.

Design

The FC-1 adopts a rather conventional aerodynamic layout, with mid-mounted wings, lateral air intakes, single-frame bubble cockpit canopy, and two under-belly stabilising fins. The drag chute bay is located at the root of the rudder. An electronic equipment pod is mounted on the tip of the rudder. The formal production variant of the FC-1 features a diffuser supersonic inlet (DSI) similar to those of the U.S. F-35 fighter for better air-intake efficiency.

Radar

The JF-17s in service with the PAF are fitted with an Italian Grifo S-7 multi-track, multi-mode, pulse Doppler radar radar. The radar has 25 working modes and a non-break-down time of 200 hours, and is capable of “look-down, shoot-down”, as well as for ground strike abilities. Alternatively, the aircraft can be fitted with the Thales RC400, GEC Marconi Blue Hawk, Russian Phazotron Zemchug/Kopyo, and Chinese indigenous KLJ-7 developed by Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology (NRIET).

Cockpit and Avionics Systems


The FC-1 / JF-17 features a ‘glass cockpit’ with three large multifunctional displays (Chinese Internet)


The FC-1’s avionics architecture is supported by two mission computers based on Multi-Bus System (MIL-STD-1553B). The heart of the system is a 32-bit Weapon and Mission management Computer (WMMC) which performs mission computations, flight management, reconfiguration / redundancy management and in-flight system self-test.

■Navigation -- Hybrid inertial navigation system (INS) and global positioning system (GPS);
■Communications -- Independent data link with two Independent wide-band radios with anti-jamming capabilities;
■Electronic warfare (EW) -- Self production jammer, missile approach warning system, radar warning receiver (RWR), chaff & flare dispenser;
■Identification of Friend and foe (IFF) -- IFF interrogator for target verification at the BVR range;
■‘Glass’ cockpit -- Three large Multifunction Colour Displays (MFD) and smart Heads-Up Display (HUD) with built-in symbol generation capability; HOTAS;
■Targeting -- Laser Designator and Targeting Pod (LDTP) for target illumination and detection with day/ night capabilities;
Weapons

Fixed weapon includes a GSh-23 dual-barrel 23mm cannon. Alternatively the aircraft can be fitted with a GSh-30 dual-30mm cannon. There are 7 stores stations, including one under the fuselage, 4 under the wings, and 2 wingtip mounted, with up to 3,700kg weapon payload.

The aircraft is callable of ‘beyond-visual-range’ (BVR) attack capability with the PL-12/SD-10 active radar-homing medium-range air-to-air missile (MRAAM) developed by China Leihua Electronic Technology Research Institute (LETRI, also known as 607 Institute). The aircraft also carries two short-range AAMs on its wingtip-mounted launch rails. The options include U.S. AIM-9P and Chinese PL-7, PL-8, and PL-9.

The aircraft can carry a special pod allowing day/night delivery of laser-guided weapons. In addition, it can also carry unguided weapons such as low-drag general-purpose (LDGP) bombs and unguided rocket launchers.

Engine

The FC-1/JF-17 is powered by a Russian-made Klimov RD-93 turbofan jet engine rated 49.4kN dry or 84.4kN with afterburning. The RD-93 is a derivation of the RD-33 used by the MiG-29 fighter. In 2007, China signed a contract with Russia to supply 150 RD-93 engines for the JF-17 production.

Liyang Aero Engine Corporation in Guizhou is reportedly developing an indigenous turbofan engine designated WS-13 (or Tianshan-21) as an alterative powerplant option for the FC-1. The engine was said to have been based on the RD-93 design with some modifications.

Specifications

Crew: One
Length: 14m
Wingspan: 8.5m (without wingtip missiles)
Wing area: 24.4m2
Height: 5.10m
Empty weight: 6,411kg
Loaded weight: 9,100kg (without two wingtip missiles)
Take-off weight: (normal) 9,100kg; (maximum) 12,700kg
Fuel capacity: 2,300kg
In-flight refuelling: No
Weapon payload: 3,700kg
Powerplant: 1X Russian RD-93 turbofan, rated at 49.4kN dry or 84.4kN with afterburning
Max level speed: Mach 1.6~1.8 (high altitude)
Max climb rate: N/A
Service ceiling: 16,700m
Ferry range: 3,000km
Combat radius: 1,350km
G limit: -3 ~ +8.5
Fixed weapon: 23mm or 30mm single-barrel cannon
External hardpoints: Seven (1 under the fuselage centerline; 4 under the wings; 2 on the wingtips)

Last update: 13 March 2009
Offline

mrfalcon

Newbie

Newbie

  • Posts: 3
  • Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 19:40

Unread post21 Nov 2009, 19:45

believe me your bolti will close .
Offline

mrfalcon

Newbie

Newbie

  • Posts: 3
  • Joined: 21 Nov 2009, 19:40

Unread post21 Nov 2009, 19:51

you look at the grace of this fighter plane
http://aviationfans.com/images/JF-17Thunder013.jpg
looks like x35 fighter front view some how the.
Offline

magkhan

Newbie

Newbie

  • Posts: 1
  • Joined: 22 Nov 2010, 23:44
  • Location: Pari

Unread post23 Nov 2010, 00:38

JF-17 looks impressive at Zuhai Airshow 2010 China...

Youtube video lin:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lybGW18 ... _embedded#!

COCKPIT
http://i.6.cn/cvbnm/99/6c/87/7054a0c1bc ... 3834e4.jpg
http://calf.cn/attachments/day_101119/1 ... 184f16.jpg

Pictures:-
http://calf.cn/attachments/day_101115/1 ... 1d0cd3.jpg
http://calf.cn/attachments/day_101115/1 ... ce790e.jpg
http://calf.cn/attachments/day_101115/1 ... 238492.jpg
http://calf.cn/attachments/day_101115/1 ... d4b4f5.jpg
http://calf.cn/attachments/day_101115/1 ... 0cae27.jpg
http://www.acelayouts.com/uploads/image ... NWod03.jpg
http://calf.cn/attachments/day_101115/1 ... 3b8184.jpg
http://calf.cn/attachments/day_101113/1 ... 74a9aa.jpg
http://calf.cn/attachments/day_101115/1 ... 9f745c.jpg
http://calf.cn/attachments/day_101115/1 ... c20e99.jpg
http://calf.cn/attachments/day_101115/1 ... 0636c0.jpg
http://calf.cn/attachments/day_101113/1 ... 674945.jpg
http://www.acelayouts.com/uploads/image ... JpFyhU.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4120/481 ... 85_b_d.jpg
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/1607/1 ... 368713.jpg
http://i.6.cn/cvbnm/40/ac/f8/40d55ba3ad ... 0277bb.jpg
http://himg2.huanqiu.com/attachment2010 ... 84275e.jpg
http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/4262/jf17.jpg
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/8156/img4976v.jpg
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/7207 ... 559632.jpg
http://calf.cn/attachments/day_101115/1 ... ebc147.jpg
http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/attachments/Mon_ ... 09026f.jpg
http://himg2.huanqiu.com/attachment2010 ... 4301_3.jpg
http://himg2.huanqiu.com/attachment2010 ... 4301_5.jpg
http://himg2.huanqiu.com/attachment2010 ... 4301_4.jpg
http://himg2.huanqiu.com/attachment2010 ... 4301_8.jpg
http://himg2.huanqiu.com/attachment2010 ... 4301_9.jpg
http://himg2.huanqiu.com/attachment2010 ... 62bf79.jpg
Attachments
JF17.jpg
BEAUTY
Offline

maximumg

Newbie

Newbie

  • Posts: 1
  • Joined: 14 Apr 2011, 11:30

Unread post14 Apr 2011, 11:39

People seem to be missing the point, JF-17 wasnt meant to replace F-16s, but rest of the fleet like A-5s, F-7s and Mirages. They are multi-role and can carry out some of the tasks F-16s can but F-16 C/Ds are clearly superior in terms of hardware as well as Avionics and thats why they cost twice as well. JF-17 is very good for its price-tag, but there's always a compromise on price and quality.

If you take the JF-17 Thunder specifications from this site: http://www.jf-17.com/ and compare with:
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article9.html

You'll see there is clearly a superior engine as well as Avionics for F-16.

Maybe in future JF-17 can match F-16 C/Ds..today its not meant to, not even by PAF, let alone the fan boys here. They both have there roles and thats why one is not replacing the other. You could increase the price-tag and try and lower the gap between the two, but that's not needed right now.
Offline

black_spider

Newbie

Newbie

  • Posts: 1
  • Joined: 25 Apr 2011, 23:15

Unread post25 Apr 2011, 23:20

F-16s are history now, JF-17 has already outclassed it. See what the taiwanese aviation industry is saying. No doubt it is inferior than F-15C but not to forget that JF-17 is still in its development. The first F16 was not as capable as the block 16 modification. JF is in its block II development. You have to wait to see the actual performance, plus it is exhibited in the Farnborough airshow means there is something good about this plane. PAF and all the other countries who are planning to acquire this plane will surely get good performance in low price tag, plus if western avionics is used in this plane. It will be a easy maintainance and more durable competitor. F16 took its time to proove itself. Give JF-17 the same amount of time and then u will know.
Offline

zero-one

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2179
  • Joined: 23 Jul 2013, 16:19
  • Location: New Jersey

Unread post20 Jul 2019, 12:48

https://hushkit.net/2019/07/19/flying-f ... ter-pilot/

The JF-17 Thunder is one of the rarest and least known fighter aircraft in the world. Operated solely by the Pakistan Air Force*, it is a capable fighter in the same class as the F-16. On conditions of anonymity, we spoke to one JF-17 pilot to learn more.

The views expressed are not the official positions of the PAF.
What is the best and worst thing about the JF-17?
“Best thing: Continuous upgrades of indigenous and Chinese weapons/electronic counter-measures suites, standoff capabilities of exceptional range i.e REK/IREK,CM-400,C-802AK etc. Worst : limited BVR load-out.”
What advice would you give to new pilots on the type? “Know your books and more importantly know the adversaries books. The modern jets are complex fighting machines so you must be at ease with all the systems in order to employ your jet with confidenc

For all new pilots: you have be a perfect blend of nerdiness and madness.. Fighter flying is nothing without study and passion.”
Interview with PAF MiG-19 pilot here
How would you rate the aircraft in terms of A. sustained turn rates B. instantaneous turn C. High alpha D. Acceleration ?
“In A-A config the aircraft is a treat to fly.. turns and rolls like a beauty..2/3 Tank config it becomes a little tricky to manoeuvre above 30,000..below 30,000 it’s superb..”
What has been your most memorable mission & why was that?

“3- 26 Feb 19, after the Indian Air Force’s attempted strikes in Pakistan border region- at 5 in the night took off in rain/low cloud with TS in the vicinity. Clouds were from 4,000 till 33,000 feet. Got out of clouds and controller reported two Su-30s ‘across the fence’. I targeted them at ranges beyond 50-60 NM but didn’t get authorisation to engage from controller, < so I> continued to grind above 32,000 flowing hot and cold 20-30NM from fence targeting the Su-30s. The IAF scrambled a total of six more Su-30s and finally I had eight Su-30s in front. Would turn hot and target each one in sequence from north to south (just spike them seeing whether they get lured in or not). After hitting texaco (air refuelling) returned to based amid rain and wet runway.. the first thing ground crew did was count the missiles.. gave a disappointed look once all were intact. the same profile continued for a couple of month but that first mission was an unbelievable experience.”

Which threat aircraft is most challenging and why? How confident do you against the M2000 and MiG-29? “Definitely the Su-30 is the most difficult aircraft in terms of current Indian Air Force inventory but we regularly fly against the F-16 and more importantly AMRAAM, so Adder and Alamo seem less worrisome (smily face). Mirage with MICA is definitely a real threat.”
93d6012be76c0d0723e6116ad9a42f86.jpg
The IAF’s Su-30 are the most formidable threat aircraft to the PAF.

How would you rate the JF-17s sensors & weapons? “KLJ-7 radar plus Indra radar warning receiver plus Self-Protection Jamming, ASEL targeting Pod equals a very potent system. We have air-ground/sea stand-off weapons with ranges of over 50NM, well out of SAM ranges”

Which aircraft have you flown DACT against- which was the most challenging and why?

“DACT : F-16 Block-52+ , Mirage, F:7P.

Turkish F-16s. Definitely F-16+AMRAAM combo was the most challenging.”

What is the best and worst thing about the cockpit?

“Best Thing : The Fully digital cockpit with 3 MFDs … Worst thing: Mmmm… no towel racks <smilie face>!”
What do the ground crew think of the aircraft?

“Some of them are from the F-7 / Mirage III/ V so its a big step up for them. Ground crew that have previously been on F-16 have their hearts with the Falcon.. but one thing is common i.e its our jet, we’ve made it and we own it.”
What is the greatest myth about the aircraft?
“Everything about it is a myth to the outside world because nobody operationally uses it. Only PAF flies it so envelope expansion in terms of capability continuously takes place and scant details are available to other.”
So how good is the JF-17? Here
Is it easy to land?

“The easiest aircraft to land amongst what I’ve flown till date. Much more easy than even basic trainers.”

Interview with Mirage 2000 pilot here

What’s the best way to fight a M2000?
“BVR: Avoid long range low DMC shots of MICA through defensive action in first flow..after that fight at equal advantage in BVR v BVR scenario IR v IR scenario: I don’t think the M2000 would be able to sustain prolonged turning engagement with a Thunder in air-air configuration.. in PAF we have a joke about mirages ” tally one mirage 6 o clock to me and I’m offensively engaged! <smilie face>“
Mirage2000_MICA_missile.jpg
Mirage 2000 with MICA- a threat to be respected.

How would you describe the Thunder in three words?
“Underrated, Reliable, Effective.”


“This is just a fun photo, done with a Thunder-shaped keychain while holding in the pattern”


In the valley… north of Pakistan near Kashmir

In a WVR fight would you rather be in an F-16 or JF-17?
“F-16 .. for the initial 180deg turn, then Thunder all the way. JF-17 with PL-10 mod (currently in pipeline) will trump F-16 with AIM-9M any day of the week, but currently on brute performance F-16 has the edge.”

dIl0U638-1.jpg
How good is the engine?

“With the current config engine produces sufficient power – but who doesn’t like a bit of extra thrust?

Which weapons are currently in frontline service on JF-17?

“Currently we have PL-5(IR missile) SD-10(BVR). C-802 anti ship standoff , REK/IREK air-surface standoff with multiple warhead/seekers/roles and then all the GP Bombs, CM-400 and host of other A/G weapons for precision strikes. All that with the integrated ASEL Pod for targeting.”

Interview with IAF MiG-25 pilot here
How would you rate the Thunder’s sensors?

“They are mission/role compatible with continuous upgrades being done on a regular basis. We’ve tested them in a high intensity stand off and everything worked liked a charm which goes to show the resilience of avionics in an intense environment.”

mVewXPWO.jpg
“This is just a fun photo, done with a Thunder-shaped keychain while holding in the pattern”


How comfortable and ergonomic is the cockpit?
“It is one of the most digitised cockpit I’ve flown till date. Even the F-16’s cockpit fades in comparison to the Thunder’s cockpit layout.”

Interview with MiG-27 pilot here

The IAF and PAF account of the 2019 vary, what actually happened? What are popular misunderstandings of it?
“We shot a MiG-21 on our side and a Su-30 on their side (which we didn’t claim initially because we already had the MiG-21 pilot in custody and that was enough of a message that we had the superiority). Plus we didn’t want to rub it in their face that we had shot two jets which in turn would escalate the problem. Needless to say, we have the wreckage of MiG-21 with all four missiles intact (hence no shooting of our jets took place) plus our electronic warfare (EW) platforms have all the radio transmissions of the IAF — and it’s a treat to listen to those confused and devastated calls of IAF pilots and controller which the shooting was taking place (IAF do not operate on secure radios so all their RT chatter is easily picked by EW platforms. Plus a MiG-21 in Block zero-one i.e below 20,000 with AA-12 Adder can only dream of getting a missile off rail against targets beyond 20NM (plus the Kopyo radar doesn’t support AA-12 launches beyond 20NM and that too on head-on aspects). Plus the evidence the Indians showed was a AMRAAM piece on their side claiming it was from a F-16 they shot. My simple question: if they found a piece of AMRAAM on their side but no jet attached to it then where did the wreckage go? Duhhh. And for a MiG to launch a missile against an F-16 and get it to A-pole and in the meantime get shot by another jet speaks poorly of the MiG-21’s pilot’s priorities as a fighter pilot. Nobody in their right frame of mind would enter the kill zone being spiked from all side and still continue hot without listening to any controller or formation member. In the intense comm jam environment with non secure radio the poor MiG-21 pilot didn’t receive any threat warnings given by his controller and I’m sure he didn’t have a moving map display telling him he had crossed the border and the comms were being jammed.”

9gM2oVQP.jpg
Have you fired live weapons, what was it like?

“I’ve fired General Purpose bombs of various sizes and done strafing. haven’t had the pleasure of letting go a missile yet.”

2019 analysis: How good is the Block II Pakistan JF-17 fighter aircraft today compared to its peers and potential threats? Here

Tell me something I don’t know about the JF-17..

“What the world doesn’t know about thunder? The autonomy it brings to PAF in terms of operations, numbers and capabilities is something that air forces around the world dream of the thing about thunder is that the factory that produces thunder is located in Pakistan..so we have all the support available inland. It is a nimble aircraft with a state of the art cockpit…it has air-air / air-ground stand off /air-sea stand off capability.. and a potent EW suite. It is continuously being upgraded with longer range weapons in all roles since we do all the integration ourselves.”
Offline

Corsair1963

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 5710
  • Joined: 19 Dec 2005, 04:14

Unread post22 Jul 2019, 08:54

black_spider wrote:F-16s are history now, JF-17 has already outclassed it. See what the taiwanese aviation industry is saying. No doubt it is inferior than F-15C but not to forget that JF-17 is still in its development. The first F16 was not as capable as the block 16 modification. JF is in its block II development. You have to wait to see the actual performance, plus it is exhibited in the Farnborough airshow means there is something good about this plane. PAF and all the other countries who are planning to acquire this plane will surely get good performance in low price tag, plus if western avionics is used in this plane. It will be a easy maintainance and more durable competitor. F16 took its time to proove itself. Give JF-17 the same amount of time and then u will know.


Sorry, the JF-17 isn't superior to the F-16. Unless, your comparing an early F-16 vs late JF-17.

Nonetheless, the JF-17 is a good fit for the PAF. Which, allows it to acquire a near F-16 equivalent at a low price.
Offline

mixelflick

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3446
  • Joined: 20 Mar 2010, 10:26
  • Location: Parts Unknown

Unread post19 Aug 2019, 16:10

It apparently put up a good showing in the recent India/PAK border dispute.

From the outside looking in, it's inferior to the F-16 in most metrics. But the addition of Chinese long range and short range AAM's, a more capable radar and implied tighter turning capability loom large. It's a great buy for the $ though, and serves as a much more capable platform vs. what it's replacing.

You have to give PAK this much: They made a decision and fielded a lightweight fighter in numbers, something India has been struggling with for years. They were successful in that regard because 1.) They knew what they wanted and 2.) They didn't expect it to be the end all/be all of their fighter fleet.

I get the sense the Indians don't quite know what they want: 2nd tier fighter but true multi-role aircraft to complement their SU-30MKI's, or a bird that's expected to trump even higher end, heavier air superiority fighters an adversary flies? This appears to be a function of its adversaries in the region.

PAK flies no heavy air to air powerhouses
China does

But economic realities being what they are, these aircraft need to be affordable. Tejas isn't getting it done, so they have to look elsewhere. The Mig-35 is probably their best bet. It isn't perfect, but should be more than a match for the JF-17. It would likely struggle however vs. China's Flankers, albeit it'd be much better off than Tejas or most single engine platforms. They're really in a tight spot, and could use the F35.

That's not happening however, so "stuck" they remain. The JF-17 looks to be just what the Dr. ordered for PAK, and a nice complement to the F-16. Good for them, and their industrial base/expertise sounds better off for it too...
Offline

sprstdlyscottsmn

Elite 4K

Elite 4K

  • Posts: 4484
  • Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 01:24
  • Location: Phoenix, Az, USA

Unread post19 Aug 2019, 16:34

MiG-35 is just a slightly upgraded MiG-29K with OPTIONS for AESA and TVC.
"Spurts"

-Pilot
-Aerospace Engineer
-Army Medic
-FMS Systems Engineer
Offline

Boman

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1445
  • Joined: 08 Jul 2004, 19:22
  • Location: Norway

Unread post19 Aug 2019, 21:11

India has requested additional 18 SU-30MKI's according to AFM.
Offline

jedit

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

  • Posts: 27
  • Joined: 05 Apr 2019, 23:43
  • Location: Pakistan

Unread post31 Aug 2019, 00:20

- PAF itself considers F16 its flagship fighter and not the JF17. Even PAF fanboys know this and PAF pilot interviews confirm the same thing. They may tout JF17 as an amazing platform, but they never say its better than the F16 overall.

- JF17 is meant to replace lower end fighters J7 and older Mirages in PAF. It is the 'best' solution to the problem PAF faces but not necessarily the better fighter among the two (F16 and JF17). I can understand why people make the comparison because both are single engined, have similar features and PAF operates both simultaneously. You cannot compare this budget fighter with the latest F16 blocks upwards of 50 until JF17 block 3 is in operation.

- PAF is highly unlikely to replace EoL F16s with JF17 as it will leave them with just 1 fighter platform once older J7s and Mirages are replaced. Hence JF17 is not in competition with the F16 even in the PAF.

Why PAF has invested so much in the JF17? ...

- It is not because JF17 is better than F16 but ...

1- It costs less to procure.

2- costs less to maintain.

3- Being the parent, PAF has primarily designed it to suit its various needs in the most basic variant rather than customize a third party platform that suits a wide range of needs globally but has to be customized to meet PAF requirements.

4- PAF has so far silently found problems and rolled out fixes in the second (already operational) and third generation (soon to be in production) without risking any negative publicity. It should become a really good low cost light fighter platform when the third generation is in serial production.

5- PAF has suffered force depletion numerous times in the past due to embargoes which made the country vulnerable to air threats. An example is the 1999 Kargil war when it had no BVR AAM to challenge BVR capable Indian Air Force and it could not procure any due to sanctions imposed after the 1998 nuclear tests. None of the 3 IAF aircraft that went down during 1999 Kargil war were credited to PAF fighters (1 IAF jet flamed out, another IAF jet and a Mi17 chopper were shot down by shoulder fired stingers).

6- JF17 allows PAF to train a generation of engineers, technicians and pilots who can learn from the existing range of foreign jets (including Mirages, F16s, J7s) PAF operates and then integrate improvements in the JF17. PAF took the chance during sanction era to convince the government to invest in a domestic fighter JV with China so JF17 was a desperate attempt to survive that has paid off well.

7- If PAF manages to sell it, its additional $$ for further improvements. If they don't manage to sell it, adversaries have less actionable intel about the platform which gives PAF the element of surprise in any engagement. Even today, JF17's role in the 27th Feb 2019 engagement with Indian Air Force is largely unknown. What is known is that JF17 was a force multiplier and the sheer numbers allowed PAF to overwhelm IAF defenses, shoot down at least 1 Mig21 (confirmed), allegedly another Su30MKI, and make them shoot their own Mi17 chopper (confirmed) with no confirmed losses of its own.

8- JF17 will always be available to PAF in its best iteration unlike F16 which may always have a version better than JF17 but it won't always be available to the PAF due to cost or geopolitical situation.

9- Last but not the least, PAF has a replacement for the ageing Mirage which is currently the only platform PAF has to carry nukes. F16 modifications PAF made to carry nukes were undone when PAF received US aid in the form of F16 upgrades as part of the war on terror. The upgrades helped F16s become more potent in conventional war, improved radar and AMRAAMs which helped it visibly dominate in the latest 27th Feb skirmish with IAF, but again, they lost the core feature PAF needed to offer nuclear deterrence.
Last edited by jedit on 31 Aug 2019, 00:37, edited 1 time in total.
PreviousNext

Return to F-16 versus XYZ

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest