UK to ditch F-35B for Superhornet

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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shep1978

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Unread post12 Sep 2010, 09:01

shingen wrote:People in the US were rooting to lose the Olympics to somewhere else. I'm glad we lost. Now my tax money can go to paying down our 13 trillion dollar debt instead.


Yeah over here in the UK some of us were rooting for us to lose too. It's such a colossal waste of money that the UK simply doesn't have anymore, not to mention its boring as hell. The only thing worse we've thrown good money at is foreign aid, i'd rather that money be burnt then go to Africa, India or Pakistan.
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Unread post12 Sep 2010, 10:41

Geo,

Let me rephrase for you. China hosted the 2008 Olympic games. London is hosting the 2012 games, and Russia the 2014 winter games. Understand now?
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Unread post15 Sep 2010, 16:37

This thread is big and not had time to look over it all!

Believing anything written in the UK press right now about defence and what is "going to happen" is a lost cause.
Wait for the SDR (Strategic defence review) for real news, everything else is conjecture.

Stories about Tornado and Harrier being axed, Vanguard SSBN`s being cut to 2 boats with gaps in deterrent patrols to save money are all options that have been "Looked" at. MBT`s being put into storage, an amalgamation of the RAF and Army (LOL), are some of the crazy ideas I have seen.

Departments were told to think of EVERY single way to save money and that`s what they did. Most of the ideas are untenable and won`t happen.

I can`t really see us ditching F-35, but if that happened, there isn`t anything wrong with the F-18. If it`s good enough for the USN and the Aussies, it should be good enough for the UK.
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Unread post15 Sep 2010, 20:53

I can`t really see us ditching F-35, but if that happened, there isn`t anything wrong with the F-18. If it`s good enough for the USN and the Aussies, it should be good enough for the UK.


EXACTLY!
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Unread post19 Sep 2010, 19:36

Don't know if 'Newsweek' has any credibility any more better than most British news papers but at least there is no mention of Super Hornets (or much else - <sarcasm> directed at Newsweek):

An Ally in Exile?

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/09/18/brit ... -cuts.html

"No other NATO ally has the ability—and willingness—to deploy forces like Britain. Which is why the Pentagon is standing by with a sense of foreboding as the U.K. undertakes a formal review of its defense posture. The question now arising in certain circles is how much backup America can count on after the recession-battered British government makes deep cuts to its military budget. “It’s bad. It’s really bad,” says a senior NATO official in Brussels, who asked not to be identified discussing a sensitive topic.

Whitehall’s new National Security Council, which is chaired by Prime Minister David Cameron, has begun sifting through the results of a closely held four-month review by top civilian and military officials of ways to reshape Britain’s forces in light of the country’s budget crunch. Foreign Secretary William Hague has publicly pledged that the review will lead to “no strategic shrinkage” in Britain’s military capabilities. Defense Secretary Liam Fox has vowed that the U.K. will retain “robust and well-equipped armed forces, capable of intervening abroad whenever necessary.”

But both men’s promises are dismissed by four sources involved in, or briefed on, the three options that, NEWSWEEK has learned, have gone to the NSC. All propose dramatic cutbacks in British forces—and, by extension, the country’s role in future conflicts. The sources, who asked not to be named for the same reason, say the choices (as labeled by the review team) can be summed up as follows:

In “Committed Britain,” the focus is Afghanistan and future wars like it, so forces would be capable of counterinsurgency operations, but little else. In “Vigilant Britain,” the focus would be on homeland defense, with an emphasis on naval power, but land forces incapable of anything beyond “an occasional foray,” says one source. “Adaptable Britain” is the most expansive of the three, but it, too, envisions deep cuts. The Army could end up with four deployable units of about 4,000 each, while the Air Force would lose 60 percent of its fast jets. Still, the country would retain at least a bare-bones, multiservice defense force—and, if carefully managed, a basis for rebuilding the military when the budget crunch has eased. Whitehall optimists think it’s likely that Cameron will go for this option.

The Obama administration, the sources say, has been kept informed of the review’s progress; it has remained silent, however, recognizing that Britain’s budget challenges make defense cuts inevitable. Even so, some in Whitehall think a nudge from Washington might be timely as the review enters its decisive phase."
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Unread post08 Oct 2010, 23:29

As U.K. Defense Cuts Near, Relief Emerges Oct 8, 2010 By Robert Wall

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... eadline=As U.K. Defense Cuts Near, Relief Emerges

"LONDON — Although the U.K. defense industry is still bracing for significant program cuts when the government’s strategic and spending review is revealed next week, there are growing indications the calamitous reductions once feared will not materialize.

At one point, defense industry representatives were bracing for cuts in defense spending well above 20% of current outlays, but recent indications are that the figure will be less severe. A cut in spending of 10% or less is now expected, several industry officials say.

But a senior industry representative warns that this does not mean critical program cutbacks will not occur. Speaking at the Conservative Party congress recently, Prime Minister David Cameron said “some big changes” are ahead.

Defense Secretary Liam Fox gave little indication of what may be cut. However, he did affirm the Trident nuclear submarine replacement program would be funded (Aerospace DAILY, Oct. 7).

Industry officials also now expect the aircraft carrier shipbuilding program may survive unscathed, partly because the cost of canceling the two vessels would be too high. However, if both are built, the U.K. is considering holding the second in reserve, thereby reducing the need to fully equip and crew the vessel.

One of the implications is expected to be a cut in the planned purchase of Lockheed Martin F-35s from the 138 currently planned for the Royal Air Force and Royal Navy.
The program is called the Joint Combat Aircraft in Britain...."
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Unread post09 Oct 2010, 01:38

spazsinbad wrote:As U.K. Defense Cuts Near, Relief Emerges Oct 8, 2010 By Robert Wall ....One of the implications is expected to be a cut in the planned purchase of Lockheed Martin F-35s from the 138 currently planned for the Royal Air Force and Royal Navy.[/b] The program is called the Joint Combat Aircraft in Britain...."


Lockheed gets funds for UK F-35 landing modification

By Craig Hoyle@flightglobal

Lockheed Martin has received a $13 million contract to incorporate a shipborne rolling vertical landing (SRVL) capability with the short take-off and vertical landing F-35B, with the work to be performed on behalf of the UK. :)

The US Navy announced details of the Joint Strike Fighter award on 6 October, just two weeks before the UK's coalition government will disclose the details of its Strategic Defence and Security Review (SDSR) process. This has assessed the nation's long-term military requirements, including major equipment acquisitions such as the F-35 and two future aircraft carriers.

Lockheed will be the main recipient of work under the new deal, with a 58% stake. BAE Systems will get 35% and Northrop Grumman 7%, the US Department of Defense says, with work to be completed by October 2013.

Developed by the UK, the SRVL technique will enable the F-35B to return to an aircraft carrier's deck carrying more weapons or fuel than possible when making a vertical landing.

Approaches would typically be flown at 60-70kt (111-129km/h) and with a flight path angle of 6-7°. An algorithm is used to calculate the optimum approach profile for given sea conditions, while the best landing point will be highlighted by using deck lighting.

Qinetiq has supported previous development work, including the use of its VAAC Harrier demonstrator aboard the Royal Navy aircraft carrier HMS Illustrious.

A research simulator installed at the UK Ministry of Defence's Boscombe Down site in Wiltshire has also been used to model the SRVL performance of the F-35B with the UK's 65,000t Queen Elizabeth-class future aircraft carrier design.

The US Marine Corps has also shown interest in potentially using the SRVL technique with its own F-35B fleet.

The UK should receive its first of three test examples of the F-35B next year. It has previously outlined a Joint Combat Aircraft requirement for up to 138 production examples for the Royal Air Force and Royal Navy, but the SDSR could potentially reduce this number in the face of massive budgetary pressure.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... ation.html
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Unread post09 Oct 2010, 02:55

Plenty of info about SRVL from these pages going forward :-) on this thread: (scroll down heaps) then forward...

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopi ... t-150.html
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Unread post09 Oct 2010, 16:43

spazsinbad wrote:Plenty of info about SRVL from these pages going forward :-) on this thread: (scroll down heaps) then forward...

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopi ... t-150.html


In the end, does the F-35B have a tailhook; as required for JPALS and SRVL?
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Unread post09 Oct 2010, 17:23

The Harrier has no tail-hook and was used to test the Bedford Array visual approach aid for SRVL operations. (JPALS is just another approach aid which is available for instrument conditions whether landing vertically or using SRVL.)

The F-35B will use its wheel brakes to stop according to this:

http://www.qinetiq.com/home/newsroom/ne ... dford.html

OL

edit: (my apologies, I see that Spaz has already provided this link)
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Unread post09 Oct 2010, 18:32

Outlaw I believe JPALS is a much better system perhaps than "just another approach aid". JPALS will enable a fully automatic landing by F-35s (and other aircraft) with great precision. See 5.5Mb PDF here: http://acast.grc.nasa.gov/wp-content/up ... allace.pdf
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20 May 05
QinetiQ achieves world's first automatic landing of a STOVL aircraft onto a ship

http://www.qinetiq.com/home/newsroom/ne ... first.html

"QinetiQ has achieved the world's first automatic landing of a short take-off vertical landing (STOVL) aircraft on a ship. Funded by the US Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) programme and the UK MOD Joint Combat Aircraft Integrated Project Team (JCA IPT), this is a key milestone in an innovative risk reduction programme for the JSF STOVL aircraft.

Andrew Sleigh, QinetiQ MD Defence said: "The achievement takes automatic landing technology to a new level and is the latest advance of a long line in research by QinetiQ and its British predecessors. Our work in the 1950s led to civil aircraft being able to land in all weathers at airports from the 1960s onwards. Today, QinetiQ has achieved a world first by successfully landing a STOVL aircraft automatically and with no pilot control onto the deck of HMS Invincible."

This new pioneering development comes from the British company, QinetiQ, whose predecessors developed the jet engine, invented carbon fibre and have helped reduce aircraft noise and emissions.

Flying QinetiQ's experimental aircraft, the VAAC (Vectored-thrust Aircraft Advanced Control) Harrier, its team of engineers successfully demonstrated that the technology it has developed could automatically bring a STOVL aircraft into land on HMS Invincible, as part of its work for the Joint Strike Fighter programme. The combined teamwork of JSF, QinetiQ, HMS Invincible and UK MoD has demonstrated how exploiting advanced technology can reduce programme risk and bring real benefits for the pilots.

The ability to land an aircraft automatically onto a ship will enable pilots of JSF to conduct missions by day or night and in weather conditions that would previously have not been possible.

The 'Autoland' technology developed by QinetiQ for JSF also significantly reduces the workload of pilots at the end of a mission and at a point when to land the aircraft onto the moving platform of a ship is a difficult and critical procedure. QinetiQ is helping deliver this Autoland capability to the US Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) programme. QinetiQ's risk reduction programme is also helping the US Department of Defense's JSF Program Office (JPO) understand more about the challenges associated with automatically landing a STOVL aircraft on a ship.

In 2002, QinetiQ's novel control laws, known as 'Unified', were also adopted onto the STOVL JSF aircraft. This system enables the pilot to simply command the aircraft to go faster or slower and up or down whilst the fly-by-wire control system does all the hard work. QinetiQ's autoland technology takes this capability a step further and the autoland technology also opens up the door for operating Unmanned Air Vehicles (UAVs) from ships.

Origins of Automatic Landing
The technology behind this recent world first automatic landing of a STOVL is the latest in a long line of development, by QinetiQ and its predecessors of the capability on military and for civil aircraft.

In 1947, The UK Blind Landing Experimental Unit (BLEU) was established within the Royal Aircraft Establishment, now QinetiQ. BLEU conducted the world’s first fully automatic landing in 1950 and had significant involvement in the development programme for the world’s first Cat IIIb landing system for civil airliners.

Later technology developed by QinetiQ's predecessor include the Microwave Aircraft Digital Guidance Equipment (MADGE), developed as a tactical approach and landing system and was subsequently adopted by the Royal Navy for precision recovery of aircraft to the INVINCIBLE class aircraft carriers.

Recent work by QinetiQ's forebears on automatic landing systems has focussed on the use of differential and relative-GPS systems. A number of flight trials were conducted during the 1990s to explore the use of GPS as a means for recovery of helicopters to restricted sites, concentrating particularly on ship operations.

In 2001, QinetiQ demonstrated a relative-GPS-based automatic recovery to a moving vehicle and automatic landing using the VAAC Harrier, including 4D operation - i.e. respecting both temporal and spatial constraints. This work has lead to the involvement of the team in the development of the Joint Precision Approach and Landing System (JPALS) capability for the F-35B Joint Strike Fighter.


QinetiQ's recent ship trial aboard HMS INVINCIBLE has demonstrated the world’s first fully automatic STOVL shipboard recovery and landing."
________________________

Push button plane landing hailed

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4567923.stm

"...Red button
The first automatic ship landing by "short take-off vertical landing" (STOVL) aircraft was achieved during a test on HMS Invincible.

It is part of the Ministry of Defence's £2bn contribution to America's $40bn Joint Strike Fighter programme.

Pilot Justin Paines: "It's something Harrier pilots have always wanted - a big red button to push and take you straight to the coffee bar."

The device works by linking a STOVL aircraft, via satellite and radio, to an aircraft carrier, Mr Howitt said.

It enables the aircraft and the carrier to know the relative location of one another to within 10cm.

Qinetiq pilot Justin Paines, 41, who was on the Harrier jet equipped with the new system said it made things "completely automatic".

In the new procedure, pilots have to press the button to plot a route in, press it again to accept and then a third time to engage.

"We are trying to make the task of recovering the aircraft to the carrier as simple as possible and let pilots focus on their war mission," he added."
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Unread post09 Oct 2010, 19:16

Probably this link/info is not in the very long STOVL thread elsewhere:

http://www.sae.org/aeromag/techupdate/0 ... 25-7-6.pdf PAGE 3 (364Kb PDF)

""...QinetiQ also gave further details at Paris [Air Show 2008] about its use of GPS technology to successfully make the first automatic landing of a STOVL (short takeoff vertical landing) aircraft on the Royal Navy aircraft carrier HMS Invincible. The achievement was part of the Joint Strike Fighter development program to enable the Lockheed Martin F-35B, STOVL version of the fighter, to operate at sea by day or night in weather conditions that otherwise would make such flying outside the safety envelope. Although based on GPS technology, the system operates in a relative mode, where both ship and aircraft are moving and their position is calculated relative to each other.

Whilst there are radar-based systems that can be used to conduct automatic landings of conventional jets aboard a carrier, these systems are not sufficiently accurate to bring a STOVL aircraft all the way to touchdown,” said Jeremy Howitt, QinetiQ Technical Manager.

A further advantage is that the system can be used at the end of any mission to reduce pilot workload; landing a STOVL aircraft on a moving ship can be particularly demanding. In 2001, QinetiQ demonstrated a relative-GPS based automatic recovery with a moving vehicle (on land) and automatic landing using the Harrier, including
4-D operation (in respect of temporal and spatial constraints).
QinetiQ has long been involved in systems to support pilots landing aircraft in difficult conditions...."
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Unread post09 Oct 2010, 19:52

Some Precision Approach History (CCA & PAR) in RN now here:

http://www.f-16.net/index.php?name=PNph ... 579#183579
OR
http://en-gb.connect.facebook.com/note. ... 7081861245 (long-winded)
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Unread post09 Oct 2010, 20:10

Didn't mean to imply that JPALS is not an extremely sophisticated and accurate approach aid (based on GPS LAAS).

"Just" that using JPALS has nothing whatsoever to do with requiring a tail-hook. Nor is a tail-hook required for SRVL.

In the end, does the F-35B have a tailhook; as required for JPALS and SRVL?

I 'spect stopping an F-35 from a SRVL approach and landing feels much like the way most people barrel up to a stoplight at 40-50 mph and then lean on the brakes about 50 feet away, just to have to sit there for another 30-60 seconds to wait for the light to change.

:D

OL
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Unread post09 Oct 2010, 20:34

outlaw, fair enough. Apologies. I like the 'push the freakin' button' approach to all of the F-35B hi tech. Push button for STOVL mode (instead of lower hook). Push Button to auto land. Cool. :D At moment F-35 brakes are being tested on wet runways.

http://www.codeonemagazine.com/article.html?item_id=54

"29 July 2010: AF-2 Begins Wet Runway Tests
AF-2, with Lockheed Martin test pilot Jeff Knowles as the pilot, begins a series of wet runway tests at Edwards AFB, California."

With all the computer simulation, by the time the first actual Shipboard (via runway testing earlier) SRVL is carried out (especially on much larger CVF landing area - any USMC landing on their 'small ships' might be more fun) operating conditions and limitations will be well known I reckon. More on the JPALS landing precision:

http://www.anahq.org/articles/Bullhorns ... 152010.htm

"...The carrier [Ford class] will be part of the process of introducing a landing guidance system to the Navy: the Joint Precision Approach and Landing System (Jpals). It will be one of the first ships with Jpals, which is slated to be on all carriers and large amphibious transports by 2018. The second Ford-class ship, CVN-79, is due to be the first carrier without SPN-41 and SPN-46 radars, which provide carriers with an automatic landing capability.

Adoption of Jpals is urgent for the Navy because current radars will not be supportable after the early 2020s.

Jpals is also associated with the F-35C, because the fighter's reduced radar cross-section means that current radar-based autolanding systems cannot acquire it. The installation of Jpals on carriers will match service entry of the F-35C.

The first increment of Jpals will be qualified for flight guidance down to 200 ft. and 0.5-mi. visibility. Accuracy is intended to be sufficient for an automatic landing, and that capability is being demonstrated as part of the Northrop Grumman X-47B Navy Unmanned Combat Air System program.

The key to its accuracy is shipboard-relative GPS, which uses two GPS receivers-one forward of the island on the starboard side and the other on the portside stern. The space between the sensors and their relative location allows the system to measure the position of the ship accurately and track its movement-speed, pitch, roll and heave-with the aid of three Northrop Grumman LN -270 inertial reference units. Using the same differential GPS technique, Jpals also provides an accurate aircraft position. A data link allows the system to transmit automatic landing guidance."
______________________

Custom made spray bar sprays water
"A custom made spray bar demonstrates its spraying technique. Engineers from different squadrons around Edwards combined their talents to create the spray bar used for wet runway testing. A custom made spray bar is needed due to the high water pressure from the tanker truck and the unique spray patterns needed for wet runway testing. (Air Force photo by Chad Bellay)"

http://www.edwards.af.mil/shared/media/ ... 9B-038.JPG

Image
______________

F-35 flight tests continue to push the envelope Posted 8/30/2010

http://www.edwards.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123219841

"...Currently at Edwards, Mr. Dykhoff and his team are testing the landing gear and brakes on the CTOL variant.

"We're mainly responsible for testing the Air Force variant and we're actually the first ones testing most of the aspects of the landing gear and brakes," Mr. Dykhoff said.

He said the STOVL and CV variants are being tested at Patuxent River Naval Air Station in Maryland and said they are all working together.

"The idea is that the tests all complement each other and we can build off one another since some of the data is common," Mr. Dykhoff said.

He said the preproduction F-35s began arriving at Edwards in May 2010 and scheduling for the developmental flight test program goes through 2014...."
Last edited by spazsinbad on 09 Oct 2010, 21:19, edited 1 time in total.
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