F-22 vs Su-30MKI

Anything goes, as long as it is about the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
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The_Mastiff

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Unread post24 Oct 2005, 07:58

Yeah it sure is. I lurked here for at least a year and a half before my first post. This site is a true resource with all the Crew Chiefs, Pilots and forces of nature like Gums. Long live F16.net! :cheers: JL Raleigh NC
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elp

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Unread post24 Oct 2005, 14:20

What makes the MKI is after the French ( Sagem ) work it over ( avionics add ons ).

As for a comparison, if you are talking air domination, there is none.

Would be nice working together as a team though. The ultimate hot setup would be not an MKI but a ( license built ) SU-35 ( 1 crewperson ) in U.S. service with U.S. avionics and sensors and weps. One reason there IS a SU-30, is that RU-tech could not make an avionics suite that could do both air-to-air and complex air-to-ground with ONE crew person. Something we have been doing for years. Hence when you see an A2G big SU..... it's going to be a 2 man cockpit. Ru-tech tried a multi-role cockpit in the SU-35. In their own words.... "it was a negative experience"... :o

Call me when you have a SU-35 with a SNIPER-XR pod and the abilty to carry a blizzard of J-weps. To do this, first thing you to is get a SU-35 and yank out ALL the wiring like what was done to the F-15 at the depot when it was upgraded to carry more advance A2A weapons. At the end of the day you have the jet sitting there with a pile of wiring, ready for the new wiring to be installed. :lol:
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akcoyote

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Unread post05 Jan 2010, 20:26

In all the comments and opinions of this face off and others like it, I haven't seen anyone address the 'politics of war' and their impact on tactics and doctrine.

Those of us who recall Vietnam can only speculate on the number of planes and pilots lost because of the ROE which did not allow BVR engagements. Combined with the doctrine that the US would never engage in knife fights and therefore didn't need guns or WVR training, it handicapped US aircrews immensely.

Don't fall into the trap of optimism, this sort of thinking can (and likely will be) repeated.

Our aircraft including the F-22 now have guns, but training is constantly threatened by budgets and we have a decreasing number of combat veterans in both political office and the military.

Have to admit that I am always suspicious and concerned when REMFs start dictating tactics and ROE.
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omkarmoghe

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Unread post22 Feb 2010, 19:37

One thing almost no no one sees is cost. if necessary russia and india can raise 4 to 5 SU 30MKI for every single F22. Now please don't say that it will use its stealth,fire 6missiles, kill them from 40 miles and run off. Loss of one Su is not a major setback but of one f22 it will heart a lot.
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skicountry

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Unread post22 Feb 2010, 20:32

omkarmoghe wrote:One thing almost no no one sees is cost. if necessary russia and india can raise 4 to 5 SU 30MKI for every single F22. Now please don't say that it will use its stealth,fire 6missiles, kill them from 40 miles and run off. Loss of one Su is not a major setback but of one f22 it will heart a lot.


I know this has been beat to death but I might add that air superiority is not just about sending fighters up against fighters. It is about bombing the heck out of enemy airfields, C3 sites, POL facilities, IADS and the like. That way, if they manage to get airborne, you’ve got them coming at you disoriented, low on gas, low on weapons and scared to death.

A quantitatively superior force can be defeated piecemeal through the judicious massing of power or the achievement of localized pockets of air superiority. Just because the enemy has 5 times as many fighters as you do, does not mean that every fight will reflect that ratio. On the contrary, if you employ your forces imaginatively, it won’t!
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exec

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Unread post22 Feb 2010, 22:44

omkarmoghe wrote:One thing almost no no one sees is cost. if necessary russia and india can raise 4 to 5 SU 30MKI for every single F22. Now please don't say that it will use its stealth,fire 6missiles, kill them from 40 miles and run off. Loss of one Su is not a major setback but of one f22 it will heart a lot.


Ok, let me think:
1. Su-30MKI price ~50 mln $
2. F-22 price ~ 143 mln $

Military budget:

1. India ~32 bln $
2. Russia ~40 bln $
3. USA ~ 668 bln

So I'd rather say that if needed US can rise 4 to 5 F-22's for every single Su-30MKI. :roll:
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Scorpion1alpha

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Unread post22 Feb 2010, 23:19

omkarmoghe wrote:One thing almost no no one sees is cost. if necessary russia and india can raise 4 to 5 SU 30MKI for every single F22.


Yet, have they?

omkarmoghe wrote:Now please don't say that it will use its stealth,fire 6missiles, kill them from 40 miles and run off.


Oh, but I will say because that is about how 90-95% of the adversaries will be destroyed by the F-22. Notice I wrote adversary plural which leads me to...

omkarmoghe wrote:Loss of one Su is not a major setback but of one f22 it will heart a lot.


Which allow me to get into the psychological aspect of aerial combat a little.

Let's say you have your 4-ship of Su-30MKIs flying around on CAP for whatever reason. Let's also assume your MKIs have all the support it wants (GCI, ground and AWACS support etc) and to sweeten the deal, flying over your turf (heavily defended with SAMs of your choice).

Now let's use 1 F-22 roaming around...

The MKIs and it's support never sees the single F-22 (the advantage of high degree of stealth built-in). With it's superior speed and maneuverability, it can place itself in a position of advantage easily and with it's advanced intergrated avionics, make that tactical decision easily and quickly.

Now the F-22 has 6 AMRAAMs internally and fires off a few and takes out...oh, let's say 2 of your comrades...right of the bat. You and your wingman survive the initial onslaught somehow.

What do you think you and your buddy would feel as you see 2 of your friends just blown of of the sky by something you or anybody else on your side never even saw? Never even knew was around? Do you think you just lost 2 MKIs or, more importantly, 4 of your friends? Do you feel anger and want to avenge their deaths by trying to find something you can't find or do you think you'll loose the will to fight, turn and fly home scared sh!tless as the realization sets in that now you might be facing the F-22 and he's still got some AMRAAMs left and maybe deciding whether or not he wants to take you out too?

We didn't use the F-22 during Operation Iraqi Freedom, but ask the Iraqi Air Force during that time as see how many of them wanted to tangle with our older 4th Gen fighters like the F-15 & F-16. Oh yeah, that's right, they didn't even bother sending up any fighters and preferred to bury them in the sand.
I'm watching...
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deadseal

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Unread post23 Feb 2010, 01:39

Sniper69 wrote:The 30 would still have a tough time because the Raptor has TV, and the heater/helmet combo.(If it gets that close). And if they make that Ramjet AMRAAM, the Raptor would be able to reach out and touch him from a more comfortable distance. Does the MKI have TV or the option for it?




Raptors dont have hmcs....also the raptor still has a longer stick than the the aa-10c. The su-30 would get smoked. What the hell is with all these f-22 v ?? KNow one really knows the capes of a raptor except the dudes who fly it and they ain't posting thier -1 stuff on the web. The f-22 is invincible because it can throw missles longer than anyone and NOT get targeted at range in return. You do the math.
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dokhla

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Unread post23 Feb 2010, 09:44

BVR the F-22 with Aim-120D will kill the su-30mki, but wont be that easy even in BVR, the su-30mki has lots of fuel and a very good Israeli self protection system, first shot first kill might not suffice. the mki has lots of acceleration and enough gas to run. In dog fight the Mki holds an advantage, it has true super manueverability. Now when the F-18SH block 2 could get a gun kill on the f-22 i am sure the Mki wont have any problem. The Raptor pilot shouldnt underestimate the Mki and kill from as far as possible, up close the Mki will have a distinct advantage. the Mki will soon also recieve the R-77M ramjet missile with a range of over 170km, the mki can also fire the KS-172S awacs killer with range of over 300km. the Mki can also soon fire the deadliest cruise missile in the world , the brahmos with a top speed of mach 3.

Not to forget the Mki also has OLS with a IRST max. range of 90km, the F-22 will be detected passively at over 80km away. The mki will also start receiving new upgrades which talk about lower rcs, smart skin sensors, AESA radr and new weapons by 2014. Though the f-22 is the deadliest bird of prey, it must stay as far and as quiet as possible to remain effective. The US should also develope new weapons like supersonic and hypersonic missiles that can deployed from the Raptor. the platform no matter how effective is useless without the right weapons. and i think the f-22 is capable of so much more, if they just create newer, faster and deadlier weapons.
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geogen

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Unread post23 Feb 2010, 11:21

akcoyote - Don't fall into the trap of optimism, this sort of thinking can (and likely will be) repeated.


'Over optimism' is indeed a potential trap which can easily be fallen into - especially during unexpected opening day, 2nd day scenarios/tactical surprises which don't go like text-book, agreed and noted.

skicountry - A quantitatively superior force can be defeated piecemeal through the judicious massing of power or the achievement of localized pockets of air superiority. Just because the enemy has 5 times as many fighters as you do, does not mean that every fight will reflect that ratio. On the contrary, if you employ your forces imaginatively, it won’t!


That basically sums up very eloquently in support of above statement quoted of poster akcoyote, as it can definitely go both ways. Well stated and noted.

------------------------------

dokhla- True, your viewpoint certainly summarizes the long thrashed debate over F-22 vs Su-30xx. Certain details within your post will always be nitpicked to death over precise ranges and angles/directions determining ranges and exact tactics used and overall performance specs in both weapons and aircrafts of course.. I won't go there, but wanted to reply that many will fully concur with your sentiments re: not squeaking by in the modernized weapons department for the F-22. For example Increment 3.2, perhaps by 2015(?) being expected introduction into service of AIM-120D and AIM-9x... a completely flawed aspect of spiral development plan, no dobut. By then there should be a Ramjet powered IIR dual mode AMRAAM for Raptor in addition to an extended head-on range WVR dogfight missile, I mean let's get real. Couldn't agree more with you there too.

In closing, one could be pretty satisfied and confident that Raptor will never tangle with the super IAF-MKI in anger (let alone vs a hot flying Super Hornet in guns). :wink: That is a fortunate thing. Too much opportunity and mutual interest for us all through the ups and downs. Cheers -
The Super-Viper has not yet begun to concede.
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Pilotasso

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Unread post23 Feb 2010, 12:49

One thing I dont get it, is because just because the MKI alegely has 3D thrust vectoring and long range SARH missiles people think there will be 1 raptor downed for every few MKI's. If you cant see the raptor from long range, then the flanker cannot fire its (rather old) SARH missiles. If the MKI is shot first, it cannot use its thrust vectoring to adbvantage in close quarters. Also, MKI's TVC is V shaped, not 3D, so basicaly on par with that on the raptor. There is no 3D TVC aircraft actualy fielded in service, and the MKI doesnt have a faster turn rate than the raptor.
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exec

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Unread post23 Feb 2010, 14:38

dokhla wrote: the mki has lots of acceleration and enough gas to run.

True, but it's still not the same league as the F-22.
Su-30MKI T/W ratio (50% fuel + 2klb AAM) = 1,02
F-22 T/W ratio (50% fuel plus 2kbl AAM) = 1,26+

dokhla wrote: In dog fight the Mki holds an advantage, it has true super manueverability.

Where do you see that advantage??


dokhla wrote:Now when the F-18SH block 2 could get a gun kill on the f-22 i am sure the Mki wont have any problem.

Are you serious? F-18 got one kill, but was probably killed hundreds of times by the F-22.

F-22 operates at high altitudes (60 000 ft) and it's aerodynamics are designed to achieve supermaneuverability at high altitudes, MKIs are not designed to operate at such high altitudes. Second thing - not only MKI has lower T/W ratio (less energy - worse maneuverability), but it's engines are not designed to deliver high thrust at high altitudes. So - the higher MKI gets, the greater disadvantage in T/W ratio.

And the most important thing - MKI probably will not be able to get to Raptor's operating altitude, so there will be no dogfight at all!

This is not the same league - F-22 has the advantage in every area.

dokhla wrote:up close the Mki will have a distinct advantage.

Distinct disadvantage.

dokhla wrote: the Mki will soon also recieve the R-77M ramjet missile with a range of over 170km

R-77M is supposed to be 70% longer ranged than the non-ramjet R-77, right?
We now know that AIM-120A/B has a range like 20-30% greater than R-77. We know that in C-5 and C-7 version this range has been increased. We don't know exactly how much, but let's say that they've increased the range by 5% in each version, and we know that in D version range has been increased by 50%. So AIM-120D range is 98-115% greater than non-ramjet R-77 and 16-24% geater than R-77M (ramjet version). You have to remember that Raptor has a speed and altitude advantage which means longer missiles range.

dokhla wrote: the mki can also fire the KS-172S awacs killer with range of over 300km.
No, MKI can't fire KS-172, becouse as for now there is no such missile:
deagel.com wrote:As of 2007, the AAM-L seems to have been discarded for the Su-35 program and its development may had been cancelled or put on-hold.


dokhla wrote:the Mki can also soon fire the deadliest cruise missile in the world , the brahmos with a top speed of mach 3.

Anti-raptor brah-mos? :lol:

dokhla wrote:Not to forget the Mki also has OLS with a IRST max. range of 90km, the F-22 will be detected passively at over 80km away.

Come on.... You know that this is not true? I have the OLS-35 specs (upgraded and much newer version of the OLS-30)

Image


What do we have here? 35km head on detection range? Do you know that you can achieve such range only under perfect weather conditions? So let's think - max range for OLS-30 is probably between 25 and 30km, add a little wind, atmospheric turbulances, wind, humidity, some clouds and detection range will drop to ~15-20km.



dokhla wrote:The US should also develope new weapons like supersonic and hypersonic missiles that can deployed from the Raptor. the platform no matter how effective is useless without the right weapons. and i think the f-22 is capable of so much more, if they just create newer, faster and deadlier weapons.

The US already has the fastes/deadliest anti-fighter weapons.
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Neno

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Unread post23 Feb 2010, 16:01

At this point (talking of near future's weapons), we could also look at ABL shooting down enemies 500+ km away....
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delta-shred

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Unread post23 Feb 2010, 17:54

To add my two cents...
I think one thing that many people don't understand about missiles and kinematic ranges is that yes while a Chuck has the range of about 80mi (130km) it need a radar that will SEE that far out to employ the missile....employment ranges (Rmax1) and Kinematic ranges are two VERY different things.
In regards to the BARS radar on the MKI...yes, its the most advanced Russian Radar in service right now but its still only a PESA radar...it only has one beam that can be mechanically and electronically steered where as an AESA radar, every nodule is sending out a beam meaning ALOT better picture quality, range and not alot of background clutter. The BARS still does not come close to the detection ranges of an APG-63(V)2 or 3 so yes, we still have the advantage in BVR with the 120 against the Adder and Alamo. And even there the MKI has a problem...yes it can employ up to 4 Adders at a time against separate targets, it still needs to go into Single Target Track to employ a Chuck because the SAR needs the CW Illumination.

The MKI is a HUGE plane (as we all know) and has an enormous RCS I can't go into details but I can tell you that an MKI with 4-10C and 4-11's has an RCS of greater than 50m^2 without any jamming profiles active (yes I dumbed down the number alot). Now you tell me...even with a jamming pod active, how far out do you think the F-22 will be able to pick this aircraft up? And yes, the numbers for the AIM-120 are VERY conservative and we will be able to shoot first.

The TVC does not give the MKI any advantage in a turning fight with a Raptor...the Raptor can still out turn the MKI (23 deg vs 28+ sustained) and we are only deploying the AIM-9x in theater and that has a significant advantage over the Archer and Aim-9M.

In regards to the IRSTS (OLS-30 and 35) if you read the brochure that Exec posted you'll notice that the detection ranges for an airborne target are against a SU-30 which has a huge IR and RCS signature so no doubt it can detect it at 90 and 35km away! Against a fighter size target (1m^2 or even 3m^2) I highly doubt it will be able to pick it up inside of 7nm...and guess what...the Raptor has an even smaller RCS and IR signature than 1m^2! So I don't know what Dokhla is thinking but there is no way an MKI will be able to passively detect a Raptor or for that matter Eagle or Viper at 80km.

I really wish I could go into the weeds on this stuff and give actual numbers and ranges because what one finds on the internet is really sad and laughable. If anyone takes anything away from this just keep in mind that kinematic range and actual employment ranges are two different things...you have to be able to see what you are shooting at. And also, like it has been said on here time and again, when it comes down to the actual fight, hours of training and flight time will most def be the determining factor.
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Pilotasso

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Unread post23 Feb 2010, 18:50

This R-77M keeps on being mentioned, when it was canceled more than 10 years ago.
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